A recent thread mentioned Diamond Gunsmithing as a specialist for working on Floozies.

I had some corrospondence with them (they answered my inquiries quickly and courteously) about having some work done to my 2-1/2" chambered Flues 20ga. and it came out that, quote,

"I won't let the gun leave my shop with short chambers. Liability reasons. To lengthen chambers is $30.00/barrel. I'll test fire with 2 3/4" light field loads." I don't want mine changed.

Just a heads up if you are considering having work done, it seems chamber lengthening is mandatory. Hate to see someone's original gun be altered unintentionally.

If that is his absolute answer, he will never get a gun of mine to work on. I have a 12ga damascus Flues that needs some work too.

If his solution to liability concerns is to lengthen chambers and remove metal from the barrels, nothing I own will darken his door.

Plus he charges for work you might not want done in the first place? He may be courteous, but a 'smith lacking in what we consider basic knowledge on this BBS is worrisome to me.

Just an update, today I received the following email from Diamond Gunsmithing.

From: diamondgunsmithing@a-znet.com
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 07:20:35 -0500 (EST)
To: recoil@optonline.net
Subject: Ithaca

Apparently you've been slamming me on a forum. What do you think may happen to a old double that was fired with a 2 3/4" round in a 2 1/2" chamber. Much more of a problem. Ithaca Gun Co., Inc. "Custom Shop" restored case color on all doubles, and single barrel traps with a special gas with a torch. This is way less heat than in the furnaces for case color. So you must think that the master gunsmiths that taught me are idiots also. Be careful what you put on these forums that might be interpreted as slander.

LES"

I replied that it's only slander if what I stated was false. Since I only quoted him directly (as here) if the statements are false it's because he gave me false information.

Rob

Well, I don't have any Ithaca's, but I sure won't be sending him any other guns to work on. His defense of his poor methods is also poor.

What kind of gunsmith threatens to sue someone? That's the Nancy Pelosi approach. The least he could do is threaten to shoot you.

I don't see the connection between case color "restoration" and short chambers. Did you dance him around on that one also; not clear until we get him quoting you but there must have been some provocation to get him to produce a defense of Ithaca passing the torch so to speak. Sounds like a guy who spent too much time around Bill Ruger and feels the conviction that he knows better than anybody.

jack

The logic for altering the chamber from 2 1/2" to 2 3/4" is beyond my limited education. The gun is not designed for modern 2 3/4" factory loads and almost all of us know that. Removing more metal in the chamber area is not going to increase the guns ability to shoot modern loads. By insisting that this must be done, to make the gun "safe to shoot", implies that after alteration the gun will be safe to shoot with 2 3/4" shells. In effect that gunsmith is impling that his actions have made an unsafe situation into a safe situation. Talk about a legal can of worms.

He would be far better off to write every gun owner a short letter explainig the possible problems that factory 2 3/4" shell could pose in a short chambered gun and keep a copy for his file. Then he should leave it as is, he has covered his liability a-- and warned the owner. Why get that involved that you may cause a greater chance for failure by increasing the chamber to 2 3/4". $60.00 is not that much money to me or even most gunsmiths.

While Ithaca did use a torch in later times when not only refinishing but in the building of new guns, internal memos indicate that the offending gunsmiths were grasping at straws in procedure since the old original methods had been misplaced. The "torch" was the result of inability to develop a proper method of coloring or hardening. My reference is Walt Snyder's first Ithaca book. I sold a very nice 4E Single Trap to a friend for a very low price. Since he had little money in it, he decided to send it to Ithaca for refinish and Dollar Grade wood replacement. The gun came back terribly torched and fitted with obviously junk box high grade wood, poorly finished and chipped badly at the tangs and action back. They had used a "takeoff" stock on his 4E, not fitted it properly and did not refinish it. To be honest, I did not see the original order for the work nor did I see the invoice. However, none of the work done did anything but detract from the value of the gun which was a nice original 4E when sent to Ithaca. The refinishing methodology that the gentleman inherited from his old workplace is nothing to defend.

I am sure there is a misunderstanding here with you fellas and Les at Diamond Gunsmithing. He has an excellent reputation and his work is well thought of. Walt Synder highly recommends Les and I know of many Ithaca owners that are very satisfied with his work. I think you are way off slamming him.

Ed Pirie
West Topsham, Vermont

I appreciate comments here, all commendable in tone and content except for the note on slander which I accept as cautionary in intent and not to diminish fair comment. But the sentence most poignant to my way of thinking is ". . . a 'smith lacking in what we consider basic knowledge on this BBS is worrisome to me." Me, too. And there's nothing slanderous in what others think of another's opinion of professionalism and competence.

Thanks for the heads up re. Mr. Les @ Diamond. I shall keep this post on file and warn others (clients) about this mans ideas and attempts to boost profits without true reason other than greed. I believe Ky Jon hit the nail on the head.

The irony here is that it has been shown scientifically that 2 3/4" loads fired in 2.5" chambers do not result in an increase in pressure vs. those same loads fired in 2.75" chambers. This is with lead shot and plastic shells with plastic wads, if I recall correctly.

I agree with you. I sent Les a grade 4 set of barrles for repair a year ago and he did a great job, and did not force me to lengthen any chambers.

My comment was only to reinforce that Ithaca as a corporate entity did torch old and new guns. They didn't do it because they thought it was the "way to do it". They did it because they didn't know how to do it right. Les should have that bit of knowledge in his data bank and reject the procedure as incorrect.

Of late, Ithaca "torched" frames on customer's guns because of unpredictable warping problems caused when put back in the 'pots'. We have this stated in a letter from Ed. Thompson, Ithaca service manager at the time. I think this is still a concern when recasing.
Ken, Les is a man of integrity and certainly not a man possessed with greed. If anything, his prices are on the lower end of the range. He is only doing what he thinks is correct. I have always known him to up front with prices and work. If ones disagrees with his practices, go elsewhere but don't inpugn the man's charactor.

If his methods truly are sound, he could prove it easily by simply stating key parameters of his process, beginning with temperatures, times, etc. He doesn't need to give all, exact details. I don't know if his process is or is not ok, and don't know how anyone could without this information.

" If ones disagrees with his practices, go elsewhere but don't inpugn the man's charactor. "

Don't a person's practices speak to their character? If I'm a surgeon and I feel the best way to remedy a broken finger is to cut off the hand, doesn't that speak to my character as well as my abilities as a doctor?

Let's not lose sight of the fact that this thread is directly discussing a gunsmith's talents at gunsmithing - it's not as though he's been accused of being a poor dresser who doesn't floss often enough.

I'll say ths much.....I've put in my share of time on forums relating to guns, machine tools, cars, bikes, etc. and I've never seen such a bunch of old ladies as the double gun crowd when it comes to getting their panties in a wad over 'defamation of character' issues. Go on the Dodge Viper site and call a mechanic a hack. He might offer to drag race you to settle the issue - but no one worries about lawsuits or loss of 'character'.

I'm going to try this one more time. Les may be a wonderful guy and I have heard good things about his company. However, my key statement was that he of all people should know that the torching at Ithaca was not by choice, it was because they admittedly lost the original formula which obviously did not involve torching. The results of "torching" at Ithaca were not good and the gunsmiths at Ithaca were well aware of that. It was a last ditch effort to get the last single barrels out the door. The practice should not be continued just because the "company" built a few dozen guns using that method.

Did you not read what Walt said?

rabbit, I didn't "dance" him around about anything. In this thread I mentioned the fact that he was using the torch method. Perhaps I was smug mentioning "Ed" but I don't think any of my posts were out of line. I wanted to alert my fellow board members what they might expect if sending a gun to Diamond to be worked on.

My private emails to him were the same, I inquired about work, was told chamber lengthening was mandatory and subsequently told him that was unacceptable. A few days later I received the email posted above. I imagine a board member alerted him to the fact he was being discussed.

I did not impugn the man, in fact I went out of my way to say he was courteous and prompt in all corrospondence. I offered no derogatory opinions, I stated facts and let you draw your own conclusions.

It is my opinion, however, that mandatory lengthening of chambers is unacceptable, to me, as is torch coloring.

Rob:

Didn't see the topic linked. Not wanting to ride to anyone's defense or question your characterization of the Fluesmith; just a day late and wondered what the fuss was about. Typical gawker behavior probably. The CW do change over time, do it not? The bit about the "dark ages" at Ithaca is interesting its own right.

jack

Has anyone actually checked the hardness of one of these "torch colored" guns? I would think that it would be all over the place, depending upon which area you tested. To my understanding, you would in essence be annealing some areas of the action, tempering others.
I find nothing slanderous about disapproving of the practice, and the comparison to "Ed" is valid. Telling someone before hand doesn't make the process kosher. What if I told you I was going to ream your barrel walls to .008", and you didn't fully understand the ramifications? Would it be slander if someone else told you I was about to ruin the gun?
As far as the mandatory chamber lengthening, it seems to me Les' liability starts at that point, not ends.
Jim

Why is this stuff only happenin' to the American classics, hmmmm?
Its not like there are no other guns worthy of the torch.
Well, the American only gun buyer looks at the percent of case color first - it is his true piece of the cross. If suckered in with this, out comes his wallet...these guys know it.
You know it!
Show me a torched Purdey, thats where the bucks would be, and not a field grade LC.

Lowell

You can not use case color or finish to judge British guns as there is a common practice of frequent refinishing or touching up as needed/desired. The problem is that mose American guns with no case fall in the near $500.00 price range and with lots of case several times that amount, but the cost of recasing is almost as much as the difference in price if done well. A Purdey on the other hand is a higher dollor gun and easier to recover refinishing/faking cost when done well.

Tourched guns are a cheap attempt to make a low dollar gun look like a much higher dollar gun. Like refinishing a classic car in a attempt to make it look factory perfect. A scam to many.

The difference between a gone grey Purdey, and a high conditioned one is in the tens of thousands.
Why not go big then?
The English gun buyer knows there's more to a gun than its color - maybe!

Here's proof the English are beyond repair:

http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/wa..._in_doorway.php

Today's Englishman is scared of his own shadow.
Storefront radical Islam is okay in London and Birmingham, and beheading videos their best sellers.

I would get away from there as fast as possible! Bobby

Oh no, not a loose .22 short. Grab your brolly and help secure the island.

jack

Just wait until Hillary, Nancy, Chuckie, Teddy, Diane, Ole bean Dean and Harry find that 22 short in your underwear drawer.

Did you notice the round had enough powder in it TO FIRE ITSELF??!!!

They have lost it completely. Thanks for the link.