I just bought another Martini on gunbroker. The auction number is T144543929. This one is a Francotte in .218 Bee. I don't know if it's a reline or not. Haven't received the gun yet. The seller says that the bore is not good, so I'm thinking of relining to .25-20, as I have a custom .218 in the works. Can anyone tell me what's going on with the pins on the lower front of the action? Any other comments about putting it back to work would be appreciated.

Tried to use that number, no joy. How about a link or pics? I inquired about a Francotte 218 Cadet on GB last month, it had a long target scope on it. Same?
Regards, Joe

144543929 is the number. I'm not sure where the "T" came from. No, it isn't the scoped gun. It looks like an original gun with a relined barrel.

The lowzer one is the action retaining pin, a bit of a split pin - which normally shouldn't ned the top screw, which is a pin retaining screw, normally used with solid pins, not split pins. Maybe installed afterwards?

You did quite well getting that rifle for that price. I'd suggest have the barrel rebored and rechambered to either .25-20 or .32-20, both of which are excellent small game cartridges and use the same basic case as the .218 Bee, which means no other modifications would be required. I've had some success with reboring done by Dan Pedersen, whose web site is http://www.cutrifle.com/index.html.

I'm a bit of a small frame Martini nut myself (have two rimfires and three centerfires currently) and think they are a lot of fun to play with.

I'm thinking .25-20 as I already have a Remington 25 in that caliber.

I'm really getting worried about my Martini addiction. I just bought another one rechambered to 32 Special, aperture rear sight and ramp front sight, new bluing, and it has been restocked in really, really good curly maple. Curly maple is my other addiction, so I couldn't very well pass this gun, could I?

Wish I could find a good Francotte cadet, have a nice CF BSA No 12 thickwall to trade....
Regards, Joe

That sure doesn't look lik a .218 bore?

I wondered about the bore size myself. But since the bore is shot it'll be rebored or rebarreled anyway. I will receive the rifle tomorrow if UPS is telling the truth.

What are the differences between the BSA and the Francotte cadets?

No major dimensional differences at all, in fact the parts will usually interchange with no trouble. I've found a few minor tolerance differences between individual parts, such as one would find in any mass-produced item made in various factories in various countries over a 50-year period (1880s-1930s).

The major noticable difference is in the retention pin that holds the lock mechanism in the receiver. The earliest Francottes (1880s) had a solid pin retained by an additional small thumbscrew; later this was changed to a semi-solid pin with a small spring built into the side of it, to help retain it in the rifle. This second variation also used an additional small slotted screw for retention instead of the thumbscrew. The later BSA variations used only a split pin to retain the lockwork, this is the most-commonly-encountered variation and was used on most of the 310s made in the UK. The final variation, used on many commercial rimfire cadets, is a threaded pin with a knurled and/or coin-slotted head. The major visual difference is the presence of the additional retention screw on the left side of the Francottes, absent on the BSAs.

I'm certainly no expert, I hope that The Double D or MartiniBelgian will chime in here and make any corrections and additions necessary. Meanwhile I'll try to get some pics of the various pins and receivers.
Regards, Joe

Not all that much to add, actually - except that the commercial small-action Francotte had a permanent takedown lever where a rotation of 180 degrees allowed you to remove the innards, without having to get out a pin or whatever. Works with eccentrics, and is quite handy, actually. Francotte actually patented quite a few takedown mechanisms, most of them being used on the small actions. The large actions usually had a simple pin with retaining screw.

40X
Dan pederson did a barrel for me also, on my Manlicher Schoenauer project. Its a 10 twist 7mm that shoots a lot of different cast bullets into the same hole.
Joe I have two 310 BSA recievers I put on a barrel stub and drilled them for the cleaning rod and also made a threaded pin for the innards like on my 12/15. I think martinies are fun. One in 30/30 Wesson and the other a 222 rimmed.
Tom

They are not the best SS action for a scope sight down low.

True - but they are among the strongest and safest around. Every action type has its strong and weak points...

can anyone post some pics of different ideas on lever design on a pistol grip stock? I'm looking for ideas for an unfinished lever.
Tom

Tom, here's one I'm doing for my early Francotte varminter. I made the barrel on the end too small IMO but that's personal taste. I've inletted the grip cap and PG so the back of the lever will nestle closer to the grip but it still looks awkward to me. This IMO is the area where most Cadet smiths fail in forming an attractive final product. The curve of the wood at the grip combined with the curve of the steel lever and the difficulty of fitting everything properly has proven to be my biggest stumbling block with these splendid little actions.

Concerning the difficulty of low-mounting a scope, I've discovered that the comparatively higher line of the top of the wrist/grip (compared to other single shots) actually helps me with mounting the scope low enough or rather positioning my face high enough for me to use it comfortably. I make the buttstock's comb nose fall just below the bore line giving just barely enough clearance for the cleaning rod to enter from the rear. This automatically positions my face at the proper height for a low-mounted target scope and gives plenty of clearance for loading/unloading. Here's a full view of the same Francotte varminter.

With a normal modern 1"-tube scope with enlarged eyepiece, however, the scope must indeed be mounted somewhat higher than minimum in order to give more clearance for loading/unloading. Much depends upon the size of the cartridge case, the scope's eye relief and the shooter's manual dexterity. Here's a comparison of the Francotte varminter with an ELW Greener takedown fitted with small 6X Burris. The Francotte is 219 Improved (30-30 case) while the Greener is 224 Maxi (357 Maximum case); both setups have enough clearance for loading/unloading and both scopes are positioned for my eyes. I hafta add that the little 6X Burris has a truly impressive 4"+ eye relief and this is one reason I chose to use it on the little ELW Greener. Another scope would almost certainly have to be positioned further to the rear or higher. I also hafta add that the Greener's hidden right sidewall has been lowered very slightly (~3/32") for better loading/unloading access.

Another unique grip treatment by Pete Grisel can be found in Frank de Haas's fine work Mister Single Shot's Gunsmithing Idea Book, I forget which page and it's out in the shop right now so you're on your own there (G).
Regards, Joe

There is one thing I have learned you can say for sure about the various Martini actions; there is nothing you can say for sure about the various Martini actions!

Take the Francotte pattern for example. Parts for one Francotte made action may or may not fit or be capable of being fit to another Francotte made action. The BSA Cadet and later incarnations are Francotte patterns and parts from them normally do not fit Francotte made guns, except sometimes and they may not fit other BSA Francottes ever. You just have to try.

As much as I respect Pete Grisel's work, the lever mod as shown in DeHaas book is abomination. I made that lever for a gun I built in 219 Donaldson Wasp for hunting Rock chucks. Carried in the field the lever snagged on everything; coat sleeves, shirt front, weeds, brush, fence wire. It left .219 DW cartridges spread all over the landscape of northern California. Did I say I don't like Grisel lever mod? When I talked to Frank on the phone about it he said I wasn't the first to come to the same opinion.

J.D. very nice work! Not only do you know how do a proper fore stock, your lever end is wonderful.

I do not know why people insist on inletting a bridge timber or railroad tie for a forestock on the Martini...the large Martini''s usually the worse. I saw, a few days ago the work of the King of little Martini custom rifles. The rifle was a large Greener action and it looked like he inlet a fencepost for a fore stock -a nicely figure walnut fence post for sure, but still a fence post. I know he intended it for a forestock because it was checkered.

To many people just don't know what to do with the end of the lever and just leave it sort of dangling, like a loose thread dangling from the seam of a shirt. Something back in 1966 my dear Drill Instructor SGT Callahan abhorred and called an Irish pennant. Just something about Irish pennants set him off.

I have used a ball for that end but that doesn't have the same pleasing effect of a nice barrel like you have made. Very nice indeed.

The lever inletted in the PG with a barrel on the end is one of the best ways to do a nice job, I'm completely agreeing with DoubleD and JD there, they have impeccable tastes... As JD said, his barrel might be a bit larger, but the general principle is pretty good indeed.

Now if we can just get American barrel makers to make Nock's forms

Can anyone recommend a good source of semi-inletted stocks for small and large martinis? I have two large actions that were converted to .22. The wood appears to be the original military wood. That wood may be nice on some of the import .577/450s coming in nowadays, but I want more slender wood for these guns. I also have a cadet now being rebarreled in .218 Bee that's in need of wood. I'd like to do a close pistol grip on it, something like JD's above.

Wenigs has several patterns for Small Martini.

Not many of the US stock makers know the difference between the variuos large Martini actions, so I suggest you send them your old wood for match up.

Treebone Carving has some old Peabody Martini patterns and I beleive they fit both the Greener Martini and the Martini Henry actions.

Second the suggestion for Treebone Carving. Excellent patterns, close inletting, and a good guy to deal with!!! Maybe not as cheap as some other source, but I always believe you pretty much get what you pay for.

The rifle arrived today. It's definitely not a .218 Bee. The Bee case won't enter the chamber beyond the case shoulder. The case head on the rifle's chamber must be just slightly smaller than the .218 case shoulder. Also, the .224 bullet will enter the muzzle easily, so I'm thinking it must be a 6mm or 25 caliber. Any suggestions as to what the caliber might be while I find my cerrosafe and do a chamber cast and slug the bore? Is there any kind of European rook cartridge about that size? There isn't a proof mark or any kind on the gun, at least above the woodline. The wood has the usual handling marks, but it's generally smooth to the touch and the metal has a general patina but no rust or other damage. The bore is usable, I think. Once I see what the caliber is I'll have to shoot it to see how it performs.

Sky's the limit in small wildcats. I'd GUESS a .25 Hornet....but don't YOU guess...).

I examined the rifle a little further. A loose .224 bullet will only enter the muzzle to the cantelure, so it probably is a .22 of some kind. The barrel is originally a .22 of some kind. It isn't a reline job. The case rim is identical to a .22 Hornet, but the Hornet case will only enter the chamber about half way. I'm thinking some kind of .22 centerfire rook cartridge. Maybe I can have a gunsmith rechamber it to .22 K-Hornet. It would be nice to know what it is though, before I have someone take to it with a reamer.

297/230 Morris is one possibility; there's both a long and a short version of this cartridge and I believe brass can be made from Hornet.
Regards, Joe

Somewhere in back issues of Handloader or Rifle (probably latter), there is an article that includes making .297/.230 and related ctgs. from Hornet brass. (By John Barsness or one of their other regulars, perhaps the guy who runs "Elk Song"??? Memory fails....).

John Barsness? How about Charlie Dell and Gary K Rogers in the September October 1997 issue of American Single Shot Rifle News

It very well could be the .297/.230. I did a little research and that caliber has less juice than a .22LR. If it is a .297/.230, it's getting rechambered to Hornet if possible. I'll shoot .223 bullets and never look back.

Several people have advised that this rifle should be left as is. I'm willing to try it first, but I don't want to have to buy components just to find that it won't shoot. Would anyone be willing to sell me a few loaded cartridges to try the rifle? I found my cerrosafe, so I'll be doing a chamber cast to make sure that it is a 297/230 Morris.