doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Westley Richards Deeley and Edge 450-3 1/4"

LRF, I'll be deer hunting with Jerry Fisher second week of Nov. NORTH OF THE WOLVES! Saw 5, five point or better bulls last year, running through the sage, coulda hit 'em with a rock, but I retired from chasing elk. Great Father& Son!!! Stop by!

bsteel, I could tell you a bunch about that rifle/era but have to save myself for three upcoming stories! can only type so much..
Thanks for the pix!! rib 99% sure soldered

That's an 1873 patent Westley.
I have my eye on a very similar gun - unless you just bought it...
Do a chamber cast for sure. Wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being a 500/450 of some sort (no.1, no.2 musket etc). I have an 1869 in No.1 express and .458" bullets work very well. .458's work great in my No.2 musket farquharson too. The fellow with the 1874 I am looking at slugged his and it is also .458" chambered in the No. 2 musket round.
Very nice gun. If the bore is as good as you say, it should shoot like a dream.

Update: Huvius is right, it is a 500/450 Westley Richards No2 Musket. (I think they have ammo at Gander Mountain!) I got my copy of Kirton's book on Friday and this rifle is listed in it by # as the aforementioned cartridge. There are 14 1873 patent rifles listed by S/N in the book and only 3 of them are Express rifles. Kirton estimation is fewer than 300 1873's were made, but who knows... I like it and think It's pretty cool. The bore is clean as a whistle - some "frosting", but I haven't even run a brush thru it yet. I'd be surprised if it's not just dust.

Huvius, send me an email and I can give you a call to discuss. I'd love to find out all I can about loading data, availability / modification of existing brass, etc. Thanks,

Bryndon

Bryndon, the first thing you need to do is to slug the barrel. It should be around .450-.458". Huvius is probably correct that it is indeed the Westley Richards No.2 Musket but according to Kirton's book, the only express model listed is in No. 1 Musket which is shorter. Can you do a chamber cast?
I doubt that Gander Mtn is going to have ammo for this as I don't think any has been loaded for some time. You may find some Kynoch around at a gun show but it will be very spendy and probably Berdan primed. It's interesting that your gun has Henry rifling as I have an 81' with Metford rifling. Mine is a target version and I am curious to know if WR used Henry rifling in the express models and Metford in the target models.
The WR #2 was originally loaded with a 480 gr .451" diameter bullet wrapped to .458" with paper. I believe there is a picture of it in Kirton's book.
Now the good news. If it is indeed a No. 2, brass can be formed from .50 cal basic brass. This is available from Buffalo Arms. Dies are available from CH4. That way, you can use LR primers instead of Berdan. Are you intending to load black or try smokeless?? Bob

If I recollect correctly, our Belgian Martini Correspondant 'Gert' loads the .450 No.2 Musket for no less than three of his rifles. I understand he forms the cases himself, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't from .500 Basic Brass.

Perhaps he'll see this item and chip in, or you can PM him on this Board or the British Military Firearms Board.

If nothing else he should be able to provide some reloading information.

Harry

Bob,

This gun is S/N 1280 (in the pix on the action and barrel) and is listed by number in Kirton book as being for the .450 #2. I realize to be absolutely sure I should do a chamber cast, but after reading the book I took another look and there is a definate shoulder in the chamber. I will cast the chamber to verify no mod's since it was submitted for the book, but I'd say it's the 450 No 2.

The Gander Mountain thing was just a joke - the one local is lucky to have 30-06 for less than $50 a box.

This one is definately Henry Patent Rifling - it not only looks like it, it is marked on the barrel as such.

I have a second printing of the Kirton book and it lists 14 1873 patent rifles, 3 of which are Express Rifles. I'll verify the others in the book and let you know if they are listed by rifling type also.

Bryndon, Yes, if your rifle is in Kirtons' book as chambered for the No.2, I doubt that any modifications were made to it.
Harry, thanks for the correction. I went to my reloading room and mine is made from 50-90 Bell brass. You know that memory thing.... Bob

Bryndon,
Sent a PM.
Bertram No.2 brass is available from many sellers.
Looks to be a wonderful rifle.
My 1869 is Henry rifled. I would suspect that there are a fair number of sporters and target rifles with either type of rifling.
I guess that was down to personal preference in the day.
Were there any other choices? Did Enfield rifling come in with the advent of the 303?

Sorry,

only just saw this post. Basically, I have 3 sources of brass:
- Bertram factory brass for no.2
- Reformed Kynoch, usually 500-465, but any such base will do.
- A bit of the last factory run of Kynoch, but they don't have any anymore

Very nice round indeed, my personal favourite BP round. I use it in 2 BP match rifles and a Martini hunting rifle.

FWIW, that trigger thingy - how 'bout a cocking indicator?

I once owned one of those in a scaled down rook rifle. Its one of the few rifles that I owned and sold, and now regret doing so. That action is very rarely seen here in the US.