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Forums10
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Dewey Vicknair
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Dewey Vicknair
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My support of L.C Smith shotguns is based looks, fit, feel and accuracy. I guess everyone on this board has a favorite mine is a Smith. Anyone want to sell me there junky High Grade Smith I'm your man.
KWD All are completely valid reasons to like a shotgun. As I stated, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, nor am I passing judgement on anyone for the kind of gun they like. People have asked for my thoughts on Smiths and I posted what I've found.
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Dewey Vicknair
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Dewey Vicknair
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But I tend to think (we can only surmise) that the guys who designed and built the 21 believed the additional machining to create the dovetail joints made a stronger joint than simply soldering flat lumps.
Jay Upon what information do you base your opinion? The marketing guys can write a lot of stuff but they can't rewrite the rules pertaining to engineering, materials properties and physics. A manufacturer (of anything) is as likely to adopt a "feature" based upon a PERCEIVED benefit as an ACTUAL one. The only actual benefit of the dovetailed chopper lump would have been to act as an aid in assembly of the barrels. A benefit to the factory workman, but no benefit whatsoever to the shooter. I'm well aware of BSA's use of dovetailed lumps and everything about the 21 applies here as well. Many of the English's patented "innovations" were little more than gimmicks aimed at gaining market share. THAT is what Winchester took from the British when marketing the 21. If the dovetailed construction was truly a benefit, why has NO ONE ELSE employed it? Especially best makers? Do they fear treading upon the hallowed ground of the Model 21? I don't think so. Most likely is that their engineering departments came up with a similar assessment to mine, just a lot earlier. Hmmm ... I'm puzzled, can't see where we disagree Dewey. Maybe you mistook me, as nothing in your response seems to me inconsistent with my suggestion that the guys that built the gun believed the dovetails made a stronger joint. Of course I could be wrong, can't know what they thought. My surmise about what was in their minds is all about perception, and derives from agreement with you on this: "A manufacturer (of anything) is as likely to adopt a "feature" based upon a PERCEIVED benefit as an ACTUAL one." I thought I was clear in acknowledging your expert assessment that there's no benefit of added strength. No need to persuade me that advertising hype (of most if not all makers) doesn't affect the reality of engineering. Nor reason to challenge me with a question of why others haven't adopted dovetail lumps -- I didn't and don't assert that the dovetail lumps are better than other methods of joining chopper lump barrels. Jay Communication error on my end Jay. Sorry
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 916 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 916 Likes: 1 |
Thank you Dewey. I come here with lots to learn. With little knowledge to offer, it may be better to keep my keyboard quiet.  I like my M-21, and guess I like to think those 1920s Winchester engineers weren't always taking direction from the guys in marketing. Since the gun was a favorite of John Olin, it seems likely to me that his perceptions influenced what the engineers produced. I have no idea whether he was more oriented to marketing or substantive product quality. Jay
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 415
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 415 |
Hmmm...I guess Monday morning quarterbacks always have been low on my list of humans.
Like those who 'know musclecars' and proclaim them to be lousy cars, someone looking back on guns designed 125 years ago and proclaiming them to be junky doesn't strike me as someone too smart. Especially when neither the musclecar expert or the gun know-er never produced a gun or car of his own. Everyone's a critic.....
The 'modern gun', much like the modern car, stands on the shoulders of what was produced 40 or 75 or 100 years ago. Sitting in my Lexus LS460L, it would be easy for me tell you just why the 1957 Imperial LeBaron was an absolute piece of junk. But I don't do that because it would make me a fool as well.
And let's not mention that your average piece of crap LC Smith or Parker has 1000 times more soul than any gun built in 1980 will ever have.
Well, I gotta go. I'm throwing out all my Jimi Hendrix records 'cuz God knows Lenny Kravitz is far more modern and better.
Character and soul... Ducati and Triumph owners have been trotting out that tired excuse for years. Machines, like humans, have no soul. Anthropomorphizing of machinery is a weak substitute for comprehension. If you're going to call someone out on what they "haven't done", you might be willing to share some examples of your work. You are in no position to know what I have, or have not produced. I will listen to your experienced judgement of shotguns all day but I'll put my own experience in here if we get to talking about motorcycles. I've owned over 20 Triumphs and and I don't know how many Ducatis ranging from a 250 Desmo single to a 750SS ,which I raced in the 1970s. Since then I have owned about 15 or 17 more but stopping around the 916 model. A friend says "Having a Triumph is like having the clap:they both run but the Triumph is harder to fix". I have owned the triples, twins and singles. They all ran if you worked on them but if they sat so did you. The Ducatis were more finicky in the old days but the new ones are just plain joy on two wheels. They are reliable and great fun to ride in my old age-I'm 73. I'll ride them until cancer kills me or some shotgun mishap takes me like John Speke.
Anything Worth Doing is Worth Overdoing
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 415
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 415 |
Dewey I did not mean to insult you . I've really enjoyed your knowledgeable posts. Please don't mistake my post.
Motorcycles were the passion of my 30s and 40s. Shotguns intruded in the 50s to my 70s.
Last edited by drduc; 11/01/15 12:08 AM.
Anything Worth Doing is Worth Overdoing
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Dewey Vicknair
Unregistered
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Dewey Vicknair
Unregistered
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Hmmm...I guess Monday morning quarterbacks always have been low on my list of humans.
Like those who 'know musclecars' and proclaim them to be lousy cars, someone looking back on guns designed 125 years ago and proclaiming them to be junky doesn't strike me as someone too smart. Especially when neither the musclecar expert or the gun know-er never produced a gun or car of his own. Everyone's a critic.....
The 'modern gun', much like the modern car, stands on the shoulders of what was produced 40 or 75 or 100 years ago. Sitting in my Lexus LS460L, it would be easy for me tell you just why the 1957 Imperial LeBaron was an absolute piece of junk. But I don't do that because it would make me a fool as well.
And let's not mention that your average piece of crap LC Smith or Parker has 1000 times more soul than any gun built in 1980 will ever have.
Well, I gotta go. I'm throwing out all my Jimi Hendrix records 'cuz God knows Lenny Kravitz is far more modern and better.
Character and soul... Ducati and Triumph owners have been trotting out that tired excuse for years. Machines, like humans, have no soul. Anthropomorphizing of machinery is a weak substitute for comprehension. If you're going to call someone out on what they "haven't done", you might be willing to share some examples of your work. You are in no position to know what I have, or have not produced. I will listen to your experienced judgement of shotguns all day but I'll put my own experience in here if we get to talking about motorcycles. I've owned over 20 Triumphs and and I don't know how many Ducatis ranging from a 250 Desmo single to a 750SS ,which I raced in the 1970s. Since then I have owned about 15 or 17 more but stopping around the 916 model. A friend says "Having a Triumph is like having the clap:they both run but the Triumph is harder to fix". I have owned the triples, twins and singles. They all ran if you worked on them but if they sat so did you. The Ducatis were more finicky in the old days but the new ones are just plain joy on two wheels. They are reliable and great fun to ride in my old age-I'm 73. I'll ride them until cancer kills me or some shotgun mishap takes me like John Speke. I've got a little bit of experience with motorcycles. motorradwerkes.blogspot.com
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Dewey Vicknair
Unregistered
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Dewey Vicknair
Unregistered
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Thank you Dewey. I come here with lots to learn. With little knowledge to offer, it may be better to keep my keyboard quiet. I like my M-21, and guess I like to think those 1920s Winchester engineers weren't always taking direction from the guys in marketing. Since the gun was a favorite of John Olin, it seems likely to me that his perceptions influenced what the engineers produced. I have no idea whether he was more oriented to marketing or substantive product quality. Jay Nonsense! Civilized discourse is the heart of the Socratic method; inquiry and discussion. As I stated earlier, My experience repairing these guns is IN NO WAY an indictment of those that like them. I think that there is a danger that some will take my findings as a personal insult. Unless anyone here is the designer of any of the things that I've listed, just relax.
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Dewey Vicknair
Unregistered
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Dewey Vicknair
Unregistered
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Dewey I did not mean to insult you . I've really enjoyed your knowledgeable posts. Please don't mistake my post.
Motorcycles were the passion of my 30s and 40s. Shotguns intruded in the 50s to my 70s. None was taken.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,964 Likes: 89
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,964 Likes: 89 |
Excellent thread all around and the type too seldom seen on this board in recent years. And I applaud the courtesy and restraint all participants have shown. Well done!
When an old man dies a library burns to the ground. (Old African proverb)
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 975 Likes: 51
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 975 Likes: 51 |
MR Vicknair, I'm a little late to this post but went to your website to have a look at your work you have posted on your gallery. I was a little surprised to not see any English guns pictured. In fact all were American guns. I'm guessing this is due to as you pointed out you have expenses to meet. Just surprised because of your earlier comment:
"I have many years working on shotguns from every industrialized nation on Earth and I can tell you that there is nothing impressive about any classic-era American shotguns."
I would not even start to argue about the quality of of the many fine guns made outside of the USA, but it Just goes to show you there are still guys like myself still willing to have our American turds polished, but sometimes we like to think the guy doing the polishing likes our turd.
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