doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Idle pursuit of the ideal 20 ga

You can find good 20 for less than a grand if you wait and pounce when you come across one. You wont find a Parker but can find Ithacas, Fox and Smith doubles in decent to very good condition. They don't fall out of trees but if you wait and watch they are out there because I keep finding and buying them myself.

In the last year I have bought a LC Smith in like new condition, 20/28" that the seller and I both thought had been reconditioned. Upon close inspection it is not and is a honest 95%, (dealer 99%) condition gun for 800. I found a early Sterlingworth 20/28" with a beater stock for 800 and scooped it up because I had a nice take off stock for it. It is a decent gun with some case color left and decent barrel blue. Just has a "replacement" stock from another Fox on it. Or you might find a Ithaca Flues 20/30" for less than 250 dollars. Fair barrel blue and trace of color with a well worn stock. It should make a nice dove gun when restocked. I passed on a NID 20/28 in good condition for less than a grand, because I just bought the Flues the day before. Maybe I'll regret it but I have two other NIDs in the same configuration and almost have to agree with my wife that I can only shoot one of them at a time.

Now if you want a 20/30" double in Smith, Fox, Ithaca or Parker your watching and finding will be a lot longer and a lot fewer chances. I was looking for a NID or Flues 20/30" for several months before I found the one I bought at the price I wanted to pay. Funny thing is that three others came up within two or three weeks, all in decent condition and all under a grand. But you can not buy them all. Heck more than half the fun is searching.

If you can get past having to have an American made classic gun, but still want a S x S, you might take a look at the SKB guns. There are some real bargains out there. I bought an apparently unfired SKB 200E, 20 gauge, with 28" barrels for $850 at auction a couple years ago. Fantastic bargain on a double. The 100s are priced even lower.

SRH

I was just recently gifted a 20 gauge gun that seems like it was made to order as an Iowa pheasant gun.
Circa 1965-1968 or so, a company called Richland Arms was importing Italian and Spanish guns that were built to the notions of one Francis Sell. Included in the companies 1968 catalog was a review of their model 707 in 20 gauge, penned by Mr. Sell. If you are not part of the baby boom generation, the name Francis Sell might not mean much to you, but, he was a proponent of the 3" 20 gauge gun, when equipped with lengthened forcing cones, a bit of a backbore, long tubes, and tight chokes, for everything, up to and including geese. As you might imagine, steel shot legislation sorta' threw a big, wet, blanket on those ideas for most hunters, but, the guns imported by Richland are still out there.
The Spanish guns, model 200's, were the lower priced alternative in the catalog, and the gem was the Italian model 707 built by Prendelli & Gasperini. The example I have has a snug beavertail, a nice, open pistol grip stock, no ejectors, and double triggers. The chokes are modified and improved modified, the barrels are 28". The 707 was also produced in 12 gauge, as a lightweight 2 3/4" model, and the 20, which was always a 3".
The single bad thing I can honestly say about it is the white line spacers that someone decided they should be fitted with. I will remove those eventually. The 707 in 20 gauge exhibits typical Italian quality of the era, at least on par with or maybe even a bit better than the run-of-the-mill Beretta of the same era. Fit and finish are nice, and every screw is timed perfectly. The barrels are struck perfectly, in and out, far better than on my Uggy, a decent gun in it's own right.
The 707s seldom turn up, which, is a shame, as the guns were a great value back in the day-a two barrel set was cataloged at under $300 in the 1968 catalog.

I owned a Darne 20 with a straight stock, longish 29" tubes and tight chokes, that was a splendid pheasant gun. I have never been able to satisfactorily replace it, and, I have looked hard, but, this gun, left in my custody by an elderly friend, might just do that. I have only had the chance to shoot it once at my local club, a quick round of trap, and I was impressed with the guns performance after I found my groove. It is not exceptionally light, 6lbs 8ozs or so, but, it handles really well.

For an idea of Mr. Sell's thinking on the 20 gauge 3" magnum, see "The 20 Comes of Age", 1977 Gun Digest. For the record, I myself have no intention of firing a 3" load of number 4s out of any 20 gauge, including this one.

Good luck in your quest.

Best,
Ted

If you are looking for a 20 gauge meat gun that can handle most anything you want to stick in it, be on the look out for a Miroku Made Charles Daly in 20 gauge. Two triggers and I believe they were chambered for 3". Tough guns and they won't break the wallet. They are a better buy then the Browning BSS and they come with the right triggers IMO. They will however be extractor guns as I recall.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/564312248

PS. Above is not my gun. Just happened to find it this am. I'd probably have a stock guy reshape it a bit and rechecker it, but the base gun is pretty nice.

Segue to another thread on "over priced Parkers" You can bet the farm it ain't the $39K CH 20 from Kevins. For that nice of dinero, should have ejectors and SST- IMO. Who buys from Kevins and Steve Barnett anyway? Do they own their inventory, or do a consignment program?? Just wonderin' is all.

Last gun I bought prior to the "68 Gun Law" was one of the Richland 707 20 ga that Ted mentioned. I bought it mail order through Herter's for a good bit less than Richland's price. I will agree with all that Ted said about it. I well remember Francis Sell's promotion of the 3" 20ga Ted, of course I'm not one of the "Youngsters" here. Mine was 28" choked mod/Full & weighed 6� lbs. I eventually gave it to my son who still has it. I have wished on several occasions I had it back.

Although I do not have the experience on them I don't think that most Early American 20's, often with 2�" chambers & even if 2 3/4" not needing very heavy loads would be my choice for a "Wild Pheasant" gun.

20 ga. Fox SW. Period. You want American, then buy American. Just don't buy the first one you find. Make sure it suits YOU!! 6lbs., dble. triggers, 28" barrels, late Philly-early Utica, and forget 3" chambers. I wish someone had told me this 30 years ago.

R.

Miller,
This gun was mail ordered to the owners home as well, but, came direct from Richland. List price for the "Deluxe" 707 (it was just more deluxe than the Spanish guns in the catalog, from what I can see) from Richland was $179.95 in 1968. The former owner never got around to using it, and when I removed it from the box, assembled it and shot it, it was the first time that had happened since it left the proof house in Gardone. Information about the Italian builder, is slim to non-existent. But, the catalog makes it clear that Mr. Sell was involved in the guns specifications and design.
It is a new gun. Wish I could find a half dozen more of them like this.
Peering down the barrels, one can clearly see the long, smooth forcing cones, and highly polished barrel walls that Mr. Sell thought so much of. I remain unconvinced that there is some magic formula for better patterns, having seen old American repeaters with bores like a gas pipe throw beautiful patterns, but, I can't say I've seen evidence that long forcing cones, three inch chambers, and backbored tubes hurt anything, either.
I've winged late season pheasants, in the cold, with 12s, 16s and 20s, and believe that having a reliable dog to help you find them is more important than what gauge gun you are using that day.
I like straight stocks, but, will admit, that when it is cold, and I am forced to wear a leather glove on my trigger hand, a long, open pistol grip seems to aid my shooting.
I look forward to giving this one a go at roosters this fall.

Romantic notions of using some old American 20 gauge double for late season roosters with modern ammunition give me the feeling that I need to hang onto my wallet with both hands.

Best,
Ted

That's kind of the dilemma, isn't it Ted.

Sooner or later you either need to use non-toxic, or OTC shells.

That eliminates a whole bunch of old American (and foreign) shotguns.
If it just sits in the closet while you "wish" you were pheasant hunting, then it doesn't matter so much.

But if you are actually going to do it on public land in wild places, the list gets pretty small.

Wonderful information here. Lots of help and much to look for. Sterlingworths are certainly high on my list. But the mention of Foxes makes me wonder, are not all Sterlings Foxes, but are all Foxes Sterlingworths? I recall the gun that was the object of SDH's first book was a Sterlingworth 20, and it would work well.

LCSmiths are interesting, but I rarely see one that isn't totally trashed. At least in Iowa, they are treated poorly for some reason.

Parkers aren't doing it for me. They look like the Industrial Revolution's answer to the Teutonic Double with overkill. Just not my thing.

Someone mentioned the Charles Daley Miroku. A friend has one that I could probably buy from him and might. But strangely, it fires less tan 50% of the time when he shoots it. For everyone else, it fires fine, but it makes me wonder. Not really what I'm looking for though. I would prefer an older gun.

Ithaca NID is one I don't know. What is NID for? I'll have to hunt that down.

After all this, though, not one mention of Lefever. What's up with that? Certainly they can run with an Ithaca or an LC, no? Might they be a better bargain than a Sterlingworth since they seem to have no name recognition to factor into the price tag?

While there seems to be a theme of no 20 for late pheasants, I beg to differ. The birds often hold tight in the snow. So tight that Gus has grabbed a few unfortunately. And those that flush wild aren't reachable with a 10 gauge. More importantly, late season is often done from snowshoes with at least one ski pole dangling from my left wrist. A small gun is much, much easier. On the days that really seem to require a 12, then I have one a couple. But now for something lighter. Just the right hammerless 16 could make the cut but I just seem short on 20s.

Ted, no need to worry about modern ammunition. It's convenient, but not required.