doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Parkers are they truely...............?

Parkers have a certain charisma. There is something about their hinge circle that strikes the eye as cool, but... the damn things are preposterously priced. There is a Parker mystique that has hordes of demented suckers bidding them up into the stratosphere. Parkers are just like Lugers and Colt Peacemakers and early Lever-Action Winchesters: famous, neat, but so eagerly collected, that they are priced far, far beyond reason.

You can buy lots of vastly superior British (or German or other Continental) Boxlocks for less than any Parker. A Greener, for instance, is a better gun than a Parker, better wood, much better engraving, better mechanism, and you can buy Greeners all day long cheaper than Parkers. You can, for example, buy a no-name 16g. German guild gun for peanuts that is better than a Parker.

I will admit (being not insane) I have never personally owned a Parker, but friends have lent me them, and I've hunted with them, and shot game with them, they are typically too heavy (lighter ones are rare and cost even more), they all whack you in the finger.

I will admit though, did affordable, rationally-priced Parkers exist, I'd be queuing up to get one nonetheless.

David, your second sentence is the perfect example of the "personal" in this discussion, which I have tried to stay away from. (Not to say you haven't either)

I don't think Parkers are cool. I think the recessed hinge pin looks terrible and I wouldn't buy one for that reason alone. I wouldn't buy any gun (unless it was to flip) with a recessed hinge pin. Ugly!!

But that's just me.

However, no problem assessing the skill and care with which Parkers were made and rating them as high or higher (the general consensus) than any other American shotgun make.

one of the differences between parker and other american gun makers, is that after ww1, the others cheapened their product in order to be competitive..parker did not...from top to bottom of the line...all parkers exhibit the same level of workmanship...

I beg to differ, Eddie-- My favorite American boxlock, the A.H. Fox--was not made any "cheaper" after 1918 than before that time frame-- Just two things were different: (1) No more Krupp Flusstahl barrels, and Mr. Gough changed the engraving pattern, actually before WW1-- And the Sterlingworth grade had the same receiver shape as a D grade- just no engraving, and not the same wood grain and checkering. Only the Depression and the sale of Fox to Savage in 1930 brought about a gradual "lesser attention to fit-up and finish of the later Utica mfg. Fox guns.

Parker quality began to diminish after the production was moved to Ilion, NY, under Remington aegis- just as to fit and finish, as with Fox- the basic mechanism and steel grades used remained the same--

Now I can't speak for LeFever-- but I will for Ithaca- The Flues series double was doomed for failure, as it was designed by Emil Flues in the "transition era" from black powder to smokeless-

But the NID series double design that replaced it in aprox. 1926- was a "winner" as far as a boxlock gun is concerned. Only two American doubles could take the 3" Magnum load without missing a beat-- The Fox HE Magnum, and the L.C. Smith Longrange--

And when Winchester, under Olin ownership, brought out the 3&1/2" 10 gauge Magnum double, they went to Ithaca, and Lou Smith and his gang revised the NID to handle that "Roman Candle" shell.

Are Parkers "America's Finest Shotgun"?? Some will hold that to be the case, and I can understand their point of view. Something had caused their higher retail pricing, especially over Ithacas "back in that era" between 1900 and 1941, to ingrain that idea firmly in the hearts and wallets of the American gun buying public--And as long as eager buyers follow that "marketing mystique" with their checkbooks, then maybe you are correct in your assessment- just not with my bankbook!!

Here is another personal note. The NID is the most ugly American double ever made...bar none.

Another: The Greener with its side safety is the most unusable double in existance except for German guns likewise afflicted.

Best buy: German doubles are usually found in the $600 range at gun shows...usually in 16Ga which is the only "problem". Some like the lighter weight the 16Ga brings to bear.

I agree on the NID-- BUT-- my late friend Brad Bachelder held that design in high regard- as he did the M21-- Now- I own a 12 in each "solid" doublegun- The M21 came from my late Dad, on Brad's recommendation, I bought a 1928 era 12 NID grade 2E- 30" M&Imp.Mod chokes-- #2 right barrel, #3 left barrel. I love it- it's stock dims are dead on to the M21- and also to my favorite M12's in 12 gauge. The checkering is fine, good even grained wood, forearm release latch- safety function, ejectors in time--

I will agree the engraving, as the late Jack O'Conner once wrote- is shallow and "showy" no "flying turnips"- and no where in the class of my graded pre-1913 Elsies- but I kill birds with it like downtown-it patterns 60%/40% at 35 yards paper patterning sheets- and I own it for under $500. Can't even buy a non-ejector Trojan or a Sterlingworth for that figure, in today's market. Even the original "Sunburst" red pad is in fine condition-- The previous owner must have cared for this NID, as do I. I could live w/o the "snail titties" that are the cocking indicators- A friend has a field grade 20 NID made in 1936- sans the indicator pins. RWTF

Some things I like about Lefevers. First, let me say most of mine are the post-1898 models with large cocking hook. These do not include the "Unnecessary" compensating features of the earlier models.

1st, in spite of the bad mouthing of the ball hinge joint as being only a "Cheap" making expedient it is quite precisely fit. It uses a taper in the threads so the screw becomes tight when in the final position to prevent it vibrating loose & still allow enough adjustment to compensate for moderate wear.
2nd the mainsprings are checked just before striking the firing pins with the inertia of the hammer carrying on to fir the gun. Firing pins thus never stick, even on a well-used gun to hinder opening.
3rd the gun can be taken down with hammers at either full cock or fired position, it matters not a whit which.
4th disassembly & reassembly is about as you will find on any hammerless double, bar none. the hammers can be removed & replaced without even taking out the mainsprings. To do this of course the hammers will need to be down in the fired position. The mainsprings themselves can be easily set out or replaced with very little compression required.
What the Parker gains in the fit & finish, which as I stated earlier, in my opinion, was a necessity to make the Rube Goldberg design work, the Lefever more than makes up in design & pure workable simplicity.

The model 21 gained its reputation on two factors, first, it was made of modern steels which are stronger than used on most older doubles. 2nd was "Brand Name" value. Offhand I cannot think of a single design element which had not been previously used.

I will grant that top safeties are a bit more convenient, but I've owned some Greeners and I still use a favorite 5 lb. 9 oz. 16 gauge all the time, and I find it easy enough to flick off the side safety and slightly shift my grip and shoot quite rapidly.

There are some of us who use hammer guns as well, and cocking two hammer all the way out of half-cock positions is a bit more of a chore than a side safety, but we have no problem doing it.

The Greener safety, it must be noted, is the one and only drop-proof, definitively reliable, never accidentally going off, box lock safety.

You might want a 10g or 12g for ducks and geese. A 12g would be better for driven grouse in Scotland or those ringnecks and sharptails in South Dakota wearing bullet-proof vests. But for grouse and woodcock, the 16g is the best choice. It's lighter and handier than a 12g and yet it's not a kid's or lady's gun like a 20g. In Upland Hunting, lightness and speed are of the essence. And I do not find that the Greener side safety slows me down significantly.

Pete,
Here is another personal note. The NID is the most ugly American double ever made...bar none.

Explain to me what you do not like about the NID, is it the shape of the action, engraving?
Just curious, not trying to start a debate. This is the first time I've heard it called the ugliest American double ever made.

Stan

Folks here used to call'em BUNIDS "butt ugly NID's". Personally, I like mine...Geo