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Forums10
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Most Online1,131 Jan 21st, 2024
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
Absolutely nothing to disagree with there! Yes, Jimmy, there are "savory" (graded) Supers which HAVEN'T rotted away. And that rackety one-rail m12 is sweet for skeet. Researcher, you can come over and play anytime you want!
jack
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,879 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,879 Likes: 15 |
My take on Supers is that they (12g only) tend to follow the price of a Citori and may have started to inch foward of Citori's lately. Consider that a Citori gun is near 2 grand today and the target versions are mid $2k numbers. A few years back you could buy most any 12ga standard grade Super for $1200 in near pristine condition, especially the trap guns. So, they are on the rise rapidly. I like the Supers but also like the early Citori's for their quality. I think an early Citori can be superior in workmanship to the Supers. Late Citori's and the current Citori based guns (like the one I currently have) are poorly fitted.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
Those semi-pistol grips made for you and me; surprised Pete Seegar didn't write song about them. Sometimes loose ribs; probably no Nippon gun has ever had that problem. Just sold '37 $&$. Didn't make money didn't loose any either.
jack
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,091 Likes: 192
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,091 Likes: 192 |
I have skeet and trap both made about 1936, the trap in low four digits but the factory historian says it was shipped late. The ribless Grade 1 Lightning Skeet has about four hundred rounds through it, the 32" Midas Trap probably has 400,000 rounds through it. They both close the same, both single triggers work well, all four ejectors are perfect. The top lever position is a tad left of center on the Midas, but has never been rebolted as far as I know. I don't like the way a Super breaks in so fast and starts to be a little loose on the hinge, but when closed they seem to stay tight for a long time. The old Midas came to me as a basket case, but oddly still had a Browning marked cloth bag hanging from the trigger guard which contained the two extra gold plated Midas firing pins that came with the gun.
Last edited by eightbore; 11/19/06 07:05 PM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,553 Likes: 108
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,553 Likes: 108 |
Well, 90% of ALL Brownings, (not just the Superposed) from the salt years had salt issues. I never heard that the Grades Ones slipped through the cracks. So, even if you don't catch one of the few, you will still be stuck with one that has the salt gun serial number and most people will shy (or run) away from them. So why buy one from those years when you can buy one for the same money from another year..... I'll never forget a few years ago, one very reputable dealer trying to be honest (but not too honest)and actually pointing out the pitting all around the firing pins on a .410 Super salt gun that he was selling for $1600.00 and telling me that it was probably caused by the gunpowder. (That way he could say he showed me the pitting if I ever came back with the gun and complained.) Yeah, right.
Last edited by Jimmy W; 11/20/06 04:20 AM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,553 Likes: 108
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,553 Likes: 108 |
By the way, right after I set that .410 back in the rack, another guy came over and started going ape over it for that price and the nice shape it was in. I didn't figure I would get involved in it, so he ended up buying it and was putting it in his car when I was leaving the parking lot. OUCH !! OUCH !! OUCH !!
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 223
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 223 |
The B25 is almost entirely hand-made.
I had one built to my spec, and took delivery last year after a wait of 12 months. Part of the process was a visit to the CustomShop to see the guns being made, select my exhibition wood, meet and talk to the engravers to explain what I wanted - and to view the hundreds of other available options. The trouble is you can keep adding options and end up with a fantastic but very expensive gun!!!
Nearly every process is carried out by hand. The actions are hand shaped after rough machining and the contours / fences cut with chisels, the barrels are brazed and ribs soldered - all by hand. The action and barrels and most of the internal parts are fitted by the lamp black technique. The stocks are fitted using a red ochre to ensure uniform fit. They are then shaped by hand to the customers specs. The stock is then treated to countless coats of a linseed oil and wax based stock treatment - then chequered by hand.
The engraving is entirely hand cut. After all this is carried out the guns are sent for C Case treatment, after they are returned the fit is again checked and finally adjusted - and all the small internal parts hand polished depending on grade.
Believe me everything is hand done apart from the initial rough maching / hogging out. If I wanted to be critical from an engineering point of view not enough is done by machine, and the process could benefit from CNC! BUT you would end up with a gun that has the balance and feel of a Citori and not that of a gun that leaps up and wants to shoot itself.
I do own both types of gun and there is no doubt that Jap built Brownings are fantatsicly put together guns, and at a price almost everyone can afford - but there can never be a direct comparison between the two guns - the Belgium ones have life in them.
Jonty
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,879 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,879 Likes: 15 |
Jonty, Just my perspective, but I always thought the Jap Brownings had one major physical characteristic that made them clunky, the barrels seem very heavy. That works well for a skeet gun, but a field gun needs a little lighter barrels, IMO. This characteristic is very evident when comparing the 20g Citori field guns to the Superposed field guns.
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 408
Member
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Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 408 |
They are still the best value on the market for the money and can be found almost anywhere. Our local gun show in NoVa over the weekend had at least half a dozen good Grade 1 SP 12 gauges in trap and field configuration right around $1500-$2K range depending on finish and some really neat early 20 gauges for $2250-2500. I don't think you can buy a better built gun anywhere, regardless of price. As for the Citoris, they are totally different guns but are completely bullet-proof so far as performance goes. Inexpensive, ultimately reliable good shooters that you can find anywhere for very reasonable prices. Unlike the Supers, they will handle steel for waterfowl hunting, which is a huge plus in our neck of the woods. KBM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,879 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,879 Likes: 15 |
Ortolan, I agree with everything you said, except that the Citori is a totally different gun. The design of the reciever and it's internal lockwork share the very similar designs with the Citori drawing heavily from the Super. One could say the Citori is the next gen Super. Had the Citori been made in Belgium or the US, the following would be larger and the prices higher, IMO. The early Citori's, say pre '90s, that I owned were very well made, with obviously better machining than the Supers I've owned or handled. The current batch of Citori based guns (I'll include the 525 and others) really are still a value (my current 525 included), but not near the quality of my early Citori's.
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