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Originally Posted By: Rocketman
Chuck, I agree that pressure and recoil are tied at the hip,...


Exactly!


Originally Posted By: Rocketman
...but pressure alone is not a cause or indicator/predictor of recoil.

Don, you know me better than that. I never meant to imply it was. Just if you have high pressures vs low pressures, while payload and velocity are a constant, the acceleration curve of the payload and the firearm are different. I'm not saying the crowd that says ejecta weight, velocity = recoil are not wrong, IMO, they are just looking at it from the higher overall perspective. That is: total energy, the E=MC2 level.

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I believe the suggestion by Parker and others to USE 2-3/4" shells(all were paper with fiber and paper wads) in 2-5/8" chambers was to maintain a better seal between the shell mouth/chamber wall and wads as they start slightly into the forcing cones. 2-3/4" shells are 2-3/4" long when fired, not 2-5/8".


> Jim Legg <

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Quote:
To me, increased pressure can only speed up the projectile, creating more energy, and the same amount of increase in recoil.

Several conditions must be understood in this assumption.
First is of course that movement does take place. If, as rocketman stated, the projectile were "Secured" so it could not move the maximum pressure that charge of powder could produce would be generated with no motion of either projectile "OR" gun.
Under ordinary conditions though the projectile will start to move down the bbl & the bbl will start to move in opposite direction in proportion to their weights.
A further condition, velocity of the projectile (along with that of the gun) can be increased in two ways 1; an increase in pressure, 2; an elongation of the time that pressure is applied.
It must be understood that bbl pressure when a projectile is launched is not a constant, but in the form of a curve. When this is understood it becomes quite obvious that "Max Chamber Pressure" is not directly related to the velocity of either the projectile or the gun.
One often sees ads stating that for $XXX a person will perform operation on your gun bbl which will simultaneously give you increased velocity & reduce the recoil. Friends this is total "Unadulterated HogWash". When firing the same identical load from the same gun, with no external modifications, anything which can be done to its internals that reduces recoil, does so at the expense of ballistics, it'd just that simple.
That "Friction" said to be reduced thus allowing exra velocity with reduced pressure was also giving an alternate "Forward Push" on the gun. "IF" a reduction of friction does indeed give you an increase in velocity, it will aslo give a proportionate increase in the rearward velocity (Recoil) of the gun, regardless of any change of pressure.
Again Recoil is directly related to the wt & velocity of the ejecta, Not to Pressure.
The wt of the powder gasses & their increased velocity as the projectile clears the muzzle is also a factor, & the only one not readily calculatable. This can normally be estimated with reasonable accuracy by adding about 25% to wt of powder charge for a shotgun, about 50% for average centefire rifles & about 75% for magnum rifles.
Reports of either "Reduced" or "Brutal" recoil from internal bbl conditions unaccompanied by a through examination giving full ballistic particulars of the firing under identical conditions existing to those while actualy firing from the shoulder, is best regarded as anecdotal & thus disregarded.


Miller/TN
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Jim, that is what I have always thought, that length stated is that of the FIRED shell.

What should be noted from the Parker label is that they specify the load being used.
The extra length and its eventual slight increase in pressure (as tested by Mr. Bell)
is nothing to write home about and surely in that case improved patterns.

JC


"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance."ť Charles Darwin
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Miller,
That's like saying if the thrust of the Space Shuttle is doubled in one portion of the boost phase and decreased in another to equal the same top speed, altitude and orbit, then the ride to the crew will be the same.

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Might we agree that this is prima facie evidence of...uh..."brutal" recoil?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EVqT3XEzss&feature=related

We are unlikely to ever quantify "perceived recoil" because of the innumerable variables contributing to personal perception ie. how did the subject sleep last night? did he have alcohol? how much? coffee this am? breakfast this am? did he take an ibuprofen for his cervical spondylosis? how's his torn rotator cuff doing? fight with his wife? did he observe the recoil experienced by the previous subject? what did they tell him the recoil was like? what is his previous experience with firearms?

Retrospective and anecdotal studies are always suspect, but with a high enough sample size, they can reach statistical significance. And if Leo Harrison III told me x trap gun had less recoil than y trap gun, to him, I'd believe him.

Last edited by revdocdrew; 09/05/08 12:01 PM.
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Doc, amazing stuff on the Youtube page: a speedy six shooter is amazing.

Bottom line, "perceived recoil" depends on the "perceiver", :-)

JC


"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance."ť Charles Darwin
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That is Saeed's, warped sense of humor.

Saeed, a prince of Dubai, owns http://www.accuratereloading.com He is the one who drops to his knees laughing in the video. It is done in his basement reloading room and test range.

What you do not see, is that Saeed is setting up his "victims". He shows them the gun, shoots a couple of very low power hand loads in it. Then he puts in full power loads and turns on the camera.

Here is the load data:
http://www.accuratereloading.com/577tyr.html

It generates approximately 183 ft lbs of recoil.

Pete

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I don't think I'd find it funny.

JC


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Neither would I, JC. Just explaining it.

Pete

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