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rwmckee #114506 09/26/08 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: fnb25
i disagree that pushing the gun away and bringing back during the mount is wrong. after reading of that method in i'm pretty sure Greener's book, i tried it and it really works well. gun never hangs up. as far as a shorter LOP goes, one could hang up the heel of a gun with any length of pull if he held it in too close. once the movement is learned it isn't a bit slower and lop becomes even less an issue.

i'll agree that pitch shouldn't have anything to do with where a gun points but i once got curious about why some of my guns just seemed to take an awful lot of work to hit with and i went thru an exercise with every shotgun i had at the time and the only thing consistent among the ones that took a lot of work was a far greater amount of drop. i can't mathematically reconcile that in my mind but the trend has continued thru every gun since then. it could just be coincidence in other factors but it's been too constant to ignore that any gun that has a lot of pitch, i either can't hit with or have to work very hard at it, regardless of any of the guns other dimensions. and that's using pasture trap as a baseline; if you miss much at pasture trap, something's wrong.

roger

Seems to be some confusion here about what pitch is. Your second paragraph started out talking about pitch and ended up talking about drop. The two have nothing to do with each other.


> Jim Legg <

HackCW #114507 09/26/08 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: HackCW
Just to clarify - I never said the method of pushing the gun away from your body before you bring it to your shoulder was wrong; I said that if you have to do that to mount your gun then the LOP of that gun is too long.

Even if the LOP is correct, that method is not one that I prefer because it requires an additional movement to obtain a proper gun mount. I believe that the more proficient and efficient you are with your gun mount the more targets (or birds) you will hit.
In some disciplines (live pigeon, particularly Columbaire) I don't think you have time for anything but the most efficient gun mount. If someone says they shoot better doing it the other way then that's what they should do. The bottom line to any shooting system is to answer this question - By doing this am I shooting better or not?

I'll throw two cents in on pitch while I'm here. Pitch, in and of itself, has no efect on where a gun shoots. I shoot with some guys that can break more targets shooting from the hip that I can with my best gun mount. Since the gun is not on their shoulder what possible difference can the pitch make? (i.e.,the Tom Knapp example given earlier).

Having said that - it all comes back to the gun mount. If the pitch isn't right you are more likely to improperly mount your gun. If you don't have enough pitch you are more likely to catch the heel of the stock on your shoulder, and if not corrected, you will shoot high. Reverse is true with too much pitch, you may catch the toe and shoot low. Again, this really doesn't apply to to disciplines where a premounted gun is allowed. It is most applicable in disciplines where you have a fraction of a second to acquire the target, mount your gun and kill it.

More confusion here, at least to me. Not enough pitch would make the toe likely to catch. Too little pitch would make the toe longer in relation to the heel. Too much pitch would make the heel catch first.
This is assuming more pitch means farther down(muzzles farther from the wall)

Last edited by Jim Legg; 09/26/08 04:07 PM.

> Jim Legg <

Jim Legg #114516 09/26/08 04:30 PM
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Well, for heavens sake, don't anyone start talking positive and negative pitch. Jim is correct that a short-toed gun is going to stick its muzzles further from the wall than a short-heeled one if you go by the old up against the wall rule. I'm nearly sorry I even cheeped about pitch. A gunfitter told me that "most people are accomodated by 5 to 7 degrees positive pitch" which I take to mean that a very large angle taker-offer (long armed adjustable bevel or protractor against a strait edge with the strait edge on the rib and second arm or protractor against the butt) will generally give a reading of 83 to 85 degrees included angle between the two. I measured a bunch and sure enuf most of mine were about 4-5 degrees less than a right angle. May be some trapshooters who adopt the exaggerated bend to the front like Elmer Fudd and need a long toe to get contact up and down the "leaning" pocket, which is still consistent with what Jim says about full contact.

jack

rabbit #114518 09/26/08 04:37 PM
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Addendum to above: you will note that your door jamb or wall and floor are assumed to be normal to each other and you just get an eyeball sense that the angle between butt and rib is less than that when you use the comparing with the world as you hope it is method. Trigonometrically speaking, if that's possible, muzzles couple inches off the wall at 28" distant from the breech (or whatever) is just another loose way of saying the included angle is less than 90 degrees on any gun with positive pitch. If the breech and muzzle touch, pitch is zero (right angle). If the muzzles touch and the breech don't, the pitch is negative, the toe is relatively long and looks like it is, and if you can shoot it, good for you.

jack

Last edited by rabbit; 09/26/08 04:39 PM.
rabbit #114525 09/26/08 05:11 PM
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I've installed a lot of pads on a lot of guns for myself and unless the stock is a Monte Carlo, cutting the butt at 90 degrees from the comb gives me good pad to shoulder contact and shoots comfortably. This is true assuming the comb has a usable amount of drop for me. I couldn't care less what the actual pitch turns out to be. It has no bearing on where the gun shoots(high or low), IMO and IME.


> Jim Legg <

Jim Legg #114535 09/26/08 06:25 PM
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Jack & Jim, wouldn't you say that pitch has more to do with banging your cheekbone
or not than anything else?

JC


"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance."ť Charles Darwin
JayCee #114540 09/26/08 07:19 PM
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I've noted that some guns with little pitch (near 90 degrees to the sighting plane) will drop off my shoulder after the first shot, causing an incorrect mount for the second shot.

Chuck H #114546 09/26/08 08:08 PM
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Assuming Jim doesn't shoot parallel or reverse-combed guns, the cranking down (bend) of the stock insures that his 90 degrees to the comb cut achieves pretty much the same result as the angular mensurator types. Different animal from normal to the sighting plane or rib. Don't need more confusion.

Big fast loads from the top barrel of an o/u always sting me. I have no theories about the effects or efficiacy of correct/incorrect pitch except that the butt will sheer on the flesh with either too much toe or too much heel. I haven't made a study of which hits you harder under the cheekbone but I would guess too much heel is the worst for this.

jack


JayCee #114566 09/27/08 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted By: JayCee
Jack & Jim, wouldn't you say that pitch has more to do with banging your cheekbone
or not than anything else?

JC

I wouldn't. I would say, as I have may times over, that pitch is important primarily to get maximum contact between the butt plate or pad and your shoulder pocket.


> Jim Legg <

Jim Legg #114574 09/27/08 06:24 AM
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What I was saying was that people know to push the gun away from them when they mount it because they know if they don't it will brush against/hang up on their chest because the LOP is too long to mount it properly and they don't want to lop off the end of the stock. They don't mount all of their guns that way. They just know that on a few, they have to.

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