doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Fun reloading tools

Hello All
Thought I would start a new post with some pictures of reloading tools for fun.







Please post pictures of some of your old tools.

What fun, what fun.

Enjoy the day
Mike

Mike is that a Lyman roll crimper? I always keep them on my items to find list but rarely ever see any of the sophisticated old shotgun equipment

Dipped a bunch of DuPont Bulk Shotgun & Shot into Fiocchi brass hulls with one of those Green Herter dippers starting back in the 50's. Everything else I had was homemade & long gone. I do now have several old loading tools, including a Eureka 16ga boxed set & several of the hand crank roll crimpers. Also have a Thalson & Lyman from the 50's era. these would all load good shells but were agonizingly slow if many shells were needed.

how old is old?

Hello
Yes,

1straightshot that is a Lyman roll crimper :>) It really works well. I use it for small jobs, When more production is needed, I have made an intermediate pulley set for my drill press that REALLY slows the sindle down. Then I use a Lyman roll crimp made for drill presses.



Enjoy the evening
Mike

The paradox loading tools, old and new -- what an inspiration.















[img]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/21/33243775_29a7bf860d_o.jpg






I have very few original *old* tools, but I do have original old rifles. They all tend to have ended up needing quite a bit of special *new* tooling to get them running.
It's always lots of fun once things get rolling!

The work ranges from building punches to building dies.
There are times I need the lathe to get anything done, but once the tools and basic components are built, the actual loading is quite simple and typically ends up happening in my graver's vise (as it's always handy), or at the shooting bench with simple hand tools.



Cheers
Tinker

This is the only photo I have stored on a host site at the moment and shows some old re-sizers to be used when paper cases get a little damp. I have a few other odd reloading items and also a digital camera that is refusing to play at the moment. Lagopus.....

This thread is very interesting to me because I load all brass hulls for my hunting loads in 28 and 16 gauge. I use a Lee Loader and shoot the loaded shells in modern guns. My hunting buddies are not impressed, but then they don't pattern and buy promo loads.

Hello All

Tinker PLEASE tell us more about pinfire reloads.

Wyobirds, if you are into brass hulls, like I am into brass hulls , check out this web site.

http://www.circlefly.com/html/wad_sizing_chart.html

I use Alcan hulls for 10 and 12 and MagTech hulls for 16, 24 and 32. Also for my 577 Snider.

Also have a lot of Rem and Win brass 12 gauge hulls, but have not resorted to them yet.

Enjoy the day
Mike

Lagopus - please check your Personal Message account on this site.
I sent you a note on your friend's rook/rabbit rifle.

Mike - the nutshell on setting up for the pinfire rifles is that they're all special and unique, but relatively simple.

The first thing I do with a pinfire gun or rifle is cast the chambers and slug the bores from the breech and from the muzzles.
I do that for both barrels, and I also run slugs through from both ends to check for bulges (which could have been hidden by subsequent barrel striking and browning or blacking) or tight spots.
It's important to know for double-damn sure what you're getting into.
I've also had numerous sets of barrels x-rayed to further my 'look-see' into what would otherwise be total unknown territory.

The circlefly comments on loading brass and proper wad column treatment is a good read - and as many things are in respect to loading black powder cartridges (shot or rifle) nothing seems to be written too clearly in stone. Great reference material though, and good to think about when you're wondering what's going on with your loads on the pattern board.

Via a chamber casting and a bore-slugging you'll quickly find out what the case-mouth wall-thickness needs to be.
My guess is that somewhere in the 99% range you'll find that your pinfire gun or rifle was built for paper tube cases.
Modern plastic hulls have similar wall thickness to vintage paper cases, so that little diddy from circlefly will likely be valuable information for anyone looking to modify modern brass cases for their pinfire guns and rifles.

Something else of note is this - you'll need to do something about securing your percussion caps and backing them for the firing pin strike --*AND*-- base wads aren't necessarily permanent. If you're looking to set up with a base wad or if you're modifying modern plastic or paper hulls for pinfire use, pay special attention to your base wads. Account for them every time you re-load those barrels. When you go messing around with cartridge modification, it's important to be especially careful of this kind of thing - and everything else while you're at it.
There's always the potential of popping a barrel by way of a bore obstruction or overload.

That brings me to powders - use real black powder.
Skip the substitutes, skip nitro-for-black recipes.
Use black powder. Goex is great, and as good as it gets for your shotshell reloading.

From there it's pretty simple.
Conservative charges of relatively equal volume powder and shot, with normal over-powder cards and lubed felt wads.

With some of the shotguns you might get lucky with simply thinning the rims of CBC brass, plugging the primer pockets, and drilling firing pin holes for use with hard bronze wire firing pins - then setting the percussion caps against the 'far side' of the case, using the barrel chamber as your backing 'anvil' for the relatively soft internal bronze firing pin.
With others, you might end up needing to go so far as making your own cartridge cases and swaging dies.

Above you'll see a steel swaging die and a series of swaged brass that I built up for my Purdey 20bore rifle.
That one was just about the most labor-intensive cartridge case development I've dealt with. The results were very rewarding though!



Cheers
Tinker

Tinker...That's pretty cool man
Seems like you know of what you speak, I bet its very rewarding when you squeeze off a shot!
Good on ya!
Cheers
Franc

Here are two Charles Green, of Rochester, reloading tools from the 1880s. He and his son also worked for Lefever at one time. Green did many conversions and some guns totally with his name and probably British locks. These are not my pictures, but I have examples of each.

Daryl-

I have those exact photos saved in my archives.
That one wad-loading tube is quite cool and I've considered setting myself up with something similar for loading tight wadding in the rifle cartridges.

Franc-

I agree, this stuff is definitely very cool.
I've learned a lot and it's been very fulfilling.
High grade sporting arms of the transitional cartridge era are what turn my screws.
I really do get quite a thrill every time I touch off a pinfire double rifle load - shotgun too for that matter.
The rifles have been *by quite a margin* more rewarding in that I've 'had to' go to a much greater degree of care and detail with setting up and loading for them. Double rifle regulation being what it is, the work involved in getting *the load* together is more involved and therefore so much more rewarding.

I highly recommend the pursuit!
A great deal of the battle is actually finding -and then purchasing- a good double rifle that's still in good enough shape to run.



Cheers
Tinker

Tinker, sorry, no personal message in my in-box. Got the camera back up and running so might be able to post some old reloader photos. Lagopus.....

Lagopus-


I'll try you again via PM
I just wanted to offer my sorted experiences to your friend with the pinfire rook/rabbit rifle and to congratulate him on such a nice find.


Cheers
Tinker

Tinker, not sure the system is working. I will PM you to see if we get a link up. Lagopus.....

Pete

Lagopus-

Still no success with the PM system here.
Give the email address noted above a shot and we can see if that works for you.
Otherwise, let your friend know that there's someone out on the West Coast of the US who's thinking good thoughts for his progress with the little Rook/Rabbit rifle.



Cheers
Tinker

Tinker, I will be seeing him on Sunday. We shoot an annual Rook Rifle event at targets that takes place in Warwickshire. Some interesting old guns come out. Lagopus.....

Tinker, I will be seeing him on Sunday. We shoot an annual Rook Rifle event at targets that takes place in Warwickshire. Some interesting old guns come out. Lagopus.....

Sounds like a great time ahead!


Get some more images of his little rifle, and of his cartridges too if you get the chance.
It'd be nice to see the efforts of another 'extreme handloading' enthusiast.




Cheers
Tinker

Tinker, if you have Boothroyd's book The Shotgun History and Development look on page 181 Pinfires are Fun and the person referred to as the 'inventor' of the system to make modern pin-fire cartridge reloads is the friend in question who I will be seeing on Sunday. Lagopus.....

Lagopus-


I don't have that book, it appears as if there's no digitized/searchable copy in the web either.
If you can scan that page and post it to this thread it would be great.

I do however have quite a few examples of 19th century text on the development of the metallic cartridge noting with illustrations a few variations on the pinfire system.

There was a guy here in the US who pulled a patent on the pinfire cartridge -- very recently. I think he had dreams of making money on the fantasy of a 'pinfire revival' - but the effort seems to have fizzled.
I've found that each gun and rifle I've had across my hands had it's own unique features - enough to the effect that in 'my perfect world' the cases and expendables for each have ended up being unique to each gun or rifle.

Is the invention you speak of the machined brass cases I've seen on the web featuring wooden toothpicks as support for the over-shot card, and the clever little threaded doo-hicky primer-pocket?
If so, it appears he's having fun with his pistol and shotgun ammunition endeavor. I wish him good success and welcome him out this way with one of his rifles. I'd be happy to get him out in our northern coastal timber for a couple days of deer-stalking.
If getting one of his rifles out here to the states would be too much trouble, I'd let him on to my Mahillon 16-bore or my Purdey 20-bore for the affair. They're both excellent running examples of the high grade light pinfire bore-rifle.

I'm sure we'd 'have a blast'!





Cheers
Tinker

Interesting bunch of old equipment! Thank you all for sharing them with us.

Tinker, he removes the metal rim from a compression formed plastic case and then inserts a brass primer holder that slides into the old primer pocket, this holds a primer at 90 degrees and then a small hole is drilled in the case to accept the pin. Simple, and the case is thrown away after use and the insert is pushed out to be used again. Contact me by e-mail at Maandeabaines@btinternet.com and I will post you a photo copy. I will see if I can get one of the brass inserts too. Lagopus.....

I have a bunch of old reloading equipment. If there is an interest I will post some of the rarer ones. Still looking for a bullet mold for a 450 BPE.

Hello Older Doc
YES!!! Post those pictures !!

Now tell me what you want in a 450 BPE bullet mould?
Are you talking about the 3 1/4 inch BPE?
I show grain weights from 270 to 365. The bullet diameter .458?
Gas check or not?
You wanting a vintage bullet mould or a working bullet mould?

Thanks
Mike

Sorry for dragging this but here tis as promised.
What is IT?

[img][/img]

More on reloading tools



[img]

I think my friend Ralph Finch found the patent on those, meaning the whirlygig thrower. Drop him an email with picture attached to:

rfinch@twmi.rr.com

He's the Target Ball King, publishes a really fun newsletter/magazine about them a few times a year. But he's also a great source of lore about other non-alive shotgun target sports and even knows quite a bit about pigeon shooting.

All this from a man who's really a glass collector and hasn't picked up a firearm in his whole life except in the military.


Destry

More

As for the Mold for a 450 BPE, I would prefer an original antique. As you can see I collect. The weight is not critical as they vary from 270 to the 400's.
Thanks for your assistance.

Hello Older Doc,

As to bullet moulds. Why would a Winchester 45-90 bullet mould not work or a Lyman 457122 Gould Hollow Point? The 45-90 bullet should be an express bullet and light enough to be used in the 450BPE?
I like the 457483 with the gas check.

Are you ONLY looking for a British mould?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Early-one-piece-mold...%3A6%7C294%3A50
Thanks
Mike

Thanks for the reply. I am looking for a British mold.

Nice stuff Doc.

To the Top

Here is a full loading machine for 12 bore both centre-fire and pin-fire: Lagopus.....

Lagopus-


Do you have any Goex FFg black powder there in your workshop?
If you do, will you please throw a struck 5 Dram load from one of your measures and weigh it in Grains, then post the result to this thread?

I am curious to see how a 19th-century volume measure will do by weight in Goex FFg.



Cheers
Tinker

Tinker, I have a tin of Goex powder but the grain size has been struck out with indelible marker and a lable saying it is number 2 grain. Number 2 is fine grain used for shotguns of 12 bore and smaller. It looks like it has been done that way to conform to the British way of designating black powder as we don't use the FFg code. I'll look into it and get back to you. Lagopus.....

Lagopus-


That sounds right.
FFg is often referred to as 2f -- and it's typically used in shotgun and rifle charges in the 12bore - 16bore neighborhood.

The rifle that I'm loading for (and that brings this question to you) is a 16bore Westley Richards.
I've gotten to where it's shooting right and I want to translate my Goex FFg charge to proper period Brit Drams

To brew it down further, it looks like they'd have called this one a '5 Dram' rifle, but I'm curious to see how many grains of Goex FFg fits into a mid-19th century powder measure at it's perscribed designation in (number of) Drams.
Got one that says 5 Drams?
Throw a charge and weigh it.
Got one that says 3 Drams?
Ditto above.
Four or two or whatever, I can do the math and get to a relative place.




Cheers
Tinker

One thing which needs to borne in mind a "Dram" is a weight measure @ 1/16oz. While true Black Powder was more often dispensed by volume rather than wt, most folks then didn't have a sensitive enough scale to weigh charges. Even today we will set a powder measure's volume to drop a given Weight of the desired powder. If a rifle maker specified a 5 dram charg of a given powder & then supplied a fixed measure for that charge it would have been regulated to measure 5 drams weight of that powder, regardless of the volume it came out. Weight of a given volume of black powder can vary according to granulation & actual components used, in particular the charcoal. Thus any volume measure unless used with the powder lot of the powder for which it was regulated, will always be a compromise to some extent.

Tinker, this is my finding: I took a standard graduated powder measure from about the late 1800's. I set the measure to 2 1/2 drams and made a single pass through the powder to get a slightly heaped measure, then, without causing any vibration to settle the powder I struck off the top with a credit card to produce a level measure. Repeated again this was weighed. I did this a few times to get an average; which showed little variation. The result for 5 drams measured was a weight of 131.7 grains as weighed ona R.C.B.S. scale. Lagopus.....

Miller-

I understand the density issues with black powder across the range of makers and grades. It's good you posted your comments to the thread though. My interest is to satisfy a specific curiosity.
It would appear that the density of various breeds of black powder has some relationship with power.


I'd love to have a moment with this measure and others like it.
Just enough time to pour/strike/weigh a charge of today's Goex FFg powder -- it would be even better to have a couple vintage rifles *with* their measures to do this comparison with -- to load them with Goex to hit to the regulated sights, then weigh that Goex charge against the volume of Goex metered through the 'regulated' measure.




That would definitely be an interesting little exercise.
Really, there are so many variables here.
Cartridge case, primer, and wad column - lube and bullet alloy - even stock fit can affect 'the load' for a double rifle.

Note these H&H case labels.





Also note this Kavanaugh label.




Although the bore rifles tend to have relatively broad latitude in the load, everything counts and it's important to keep it all in the picture.

Can't go back in time - but with some things we can compare what we have now with what's left over from 'way back when'...




Cheers
Tinker