doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Krupp barrel composition

Thanks much for the correction, Yeti.

Not condoning Krupp or German militarism, but the glimse into the early history of an industrial super empire was very interesting for me. It was amazing how long the old German generals clung to their bronze field canon over fluid steel. The way Krupp played the imperialist powers off one another in selling the lastest weapons technology at the turn of the century was especially illuminating.

C.

I proud to say, that I've never had a Krupped barreled gun. It's composition would be of bad taste to own.

Lowell, then you haven't lived lacking a tube by Friedrich Krupp and Heinrich Ehrhardt.

I think the patent date in Berlin for Nirosta was October 17, 1912(I couldn't find it in the U.S. of A. but here's something similar: http://www.google.com/patents?id=F6ZiAAA...y_r&cad=0_0 ) and the trademark NIROSTA(NIchtROstendenSTAhl) was acquired in 1922. I believe it was Ernest Stuart of the Sheffield cutlery of R. F. Mosley that 1st discovered stainless steel with 0.24% Carbon and 12.8% Chromium or the metal had a range of 0.2-0.3% carbon and 5-15% Chromium. It is interesting to note that these percentage are relative to weight. But Krupp beat Harry Brearley of Sheffield to the punch by filing for the patent just before Brearley discovered. Both could have had 2 independent processes running parallel, but I doubt it as industrial esponiage ran at an all time high about this time. Krupp may have "acquired" blossoming technology and was able to fast-track it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

18 - 8 is our common 304 type stainless, the enduro type looks like it is on the way to our 430 muffler stock

bill

Interesting Bill.

I would suspect that a tube of Krupp Laufstahl pre-WWI would be similar to the Nickelstahl version but info from the mid 1880s may provide some insight into crucible gun tube steel:

Swedish Ordnance Commission Steel component requirements:
Carbon – 0.35 to 0.45%
Silicon – 0.40 to 0.60%
Manganese – 0.40 to 0.60%
Phosphorus – under 0.06%

Swedish Gun Barrel Component requirements:
Carbon – 0.470%
Silicon – 0.443%
Manganese – 0.410%
Sulphur – 0.039%
Phosphorus – 0.083%

Royal Gun Factory, Woolwich – requirements
Firth – Carbon - 0.338 to 0.400%
- Manganese – 0.075 to 0.126%
Whitworth – Carbon – 0.300 to 0.417%
- Manganese – 0.240 to 0.312%
Vickers – Carbon – 0.272 to 0.240%
- Manganese – 0.225 to 0.216%
Cammell – Carbon – 0.143 to 0.194%
- Manganese – 0.341 to 0.248%

Krupp Cannon analyzed in Austria:
Carbon 0.405%
Cobalt & Nickel – 0.057%
Copper – 0.126%
Manganese – 0.184%
Phosphorus – 0.032%
Silicon – 0.191%
Sulphur – 0.023%
And of course Iron at 98.982 by subtraction

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Lowell, there are a whole bunch of Foxes out there with Krupp barrels.

There are several variations of the 300 series stainless steels besides just 304 which are of the 18-8 class. All of these are non-magnetic. Machined a pile of these when I worked at AEDC, TN as we had one test facility that everything which went inside was required to be non-magnetic. For the most part it was either aluminum or one of the 18-8 series, depending upon strength requirements.

If you have a small sample of a damaged barrel from that era we can remove all doubt and test it to verify chemistry. A piece about half the size of a postage stamp would be fine. Let me know and I will provide you forwarding information.

Henri Schneider of France looks to be the cat responsible for the discovery/addition of nickel to steel probably in 1887/1888:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=hXptAAA...y_r&cad=0_0 . So any steel product such as a longarm tube from say the mid 1890s onward would be of the nickel-steel variety, of course with the possible exception of pattern welded tubes. I think he stumbled onto it due to the raw material/ore he was using had a nickel content.

I have a question regarding if a tube has the "Krupp Stahl" mark but not the area of "Essen" stamp, is it implied or since Krupp was a global steel powerhouse, could the tube been made via the Krupp process in another facilty outside of Germany? It sort of goes against the grain of Germany having Essen and the Suhl areas where all arms components could be sourced. But there are those tube stamps of a "T" or "K" inside a rotated square or rhombus usually seen with "Krupp Stahl" but sometimes or usually without the "Essen" stamp. Krupp looks to have an early interest in the Terni Steel Works hydro-electric facility in Italy in the first part of the last 1/4 of the 19th century, as did Vickers. From time to time terms like "Terni-Krupp" are seen. And the Germans and Italians were quite chummy. Or it could be a grade steel made by the Krupp process which includes a portion of the patent by Captain Tolmie John Tresidder, http://www.google.com/patents?id=qdxCAAA...y_r&cad=0_0 . By the way Hayward A. Harvey of New Jersey looks to have advanced gun tubes and armour plates with a process akin to case colour harding where the steel is kept at a very high temp from a fortnight which draws the carbon toward the surface:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=3P1ZAAA...cad=0_0#PPA1,M1

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Miller,

Is this the AEDC you worked at?
http://www.arnold.af.mil/

Pete