doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Pressure vs recoil in old guns

Somehwat interesting thread I saw the other day, which brought up this oft-discussed topic again. It seems this comes up frequently, but I have yet to get an answer that made sense to me without it immediately being contradicted by something that also seemed to have some logic behind it. Here's the most recent topic:
UJ pressure vs recoil thread

now, in the above case, it was brought about by a topic on chamber length. I'm NOT wondering about chamber length. I am wondering what exactly the effects of higher pressure are on a gun, independant of recoil; and also what the effects of higher recoil are in a gun independant of pressure. I have recieved contradictory advice from different doublegun smiths on the same shotgun before--one saying that just about any reasonalbe payload was fine so long as the pressure was low, and the other saying that any reasonable pressure was fine so long as the recoil was low...and then of course on the good 'ol intranets you get all sorts of technical information from people who seem like they know a little about a lot of things, and I have a hard time separating them from whose who are genuinely knowlegable. I'm sure this thread could become the same way...but in this case what I'm wondering is if there are any peer-reviewed references out there where a curious lad like myself could read up on this (without requiring a phd hopefully)? I'm hoping to find something that can explain in somewhat concrete terms what exactly the real affects of both pressure and recoil are on the various parts of a gun, what the consequences are of varying levels of each, what the thought process is behind the various standards, some info on proof testing of guns and its purpose, etc. I tried accessing some of the publications on the SAAMI website but they repeatedly froze my computer. Is there an equivalent CIP website or reference that I might look for? I know of a couple books already that I'll look for, but what are the key ones? Other info? Is there a "Bat-signal" that Sherman Bell responds to?
Thanks,
Dave

I'd have to agree with the above...no concrete evidence, it just makes the most sense.

What most of us perceive a "recoil" is a result of the spike that occurs. Basically, felt recoil is measured by the peak measurement desribed by force against your shoulder. Essentially, it's the differnece between a gentle push against your shoulder, versus a punch. Both have that same total energy, but one feels more comfortable. All other things being equal, that's why a load with slow burning powder will feel less "pushy",and today's promotional loads which generate more pressure, and therefore higher recoil and worse patterns

Pressure blows apart barrels, recoil breaks stocks. That is if you talking only the effect on the gun. If you can afford to replace stocks don't worry about recoil. Loosing your fingers or eyes is a different thing all together, of course. All depends on what gun your talking about? Remington 870 - no worries, unless your have mud in the bore.

SAAMI 1931

A couple of things must be understood. Pressure & Recoil are not directly related in the way many assume. Heavy recoil can be generated with low pressure & High pressure may generate low recoil.
Ben-T pretty well has it summed up. Pressure is of concern primarily to the chamber of the gun,ie wall thickness in that area. Frame flexing, stock cracking etc are all dependant on the recoil.
Charge wt and/or velocity determine recoil. Powder burn rate vs charge wt determine pressure.
Incidently there are dangers involved with pressures being either Too high or "Too Low". Any gun I do not feel comfortable using loads of up to 8K psi, I hang on the wall.

Does that help and do you have remaining questions.

Glad someone brought up this discussion over here. The main issue in the discussion over on UJ is whether overpressure (for example, using modern American factory loads in either American or foreign guns, made with shorter chambers and proofed at lower than current standards, and designed for lower service pressure) will accelerate wear--as in causing a gun to shoot loose (off face) sooner? I contend that pressure is the primary issue here, not recoil.

Rocketman, I'm having trouble matching up your "quote" with 2 Piper's post just above it. Looks like either he edited his original post, deleting comments about accelerated wear to metal parts, or else that was your addition to his post and somehow got included in the quote.

Having followed a lot of these discussions on this BB for a number of years, it seems to me that the consensus has always been: pressure can cause catastrophic failures and accelerate wear of metal parts; recoil mainly impacts the stock (and the shooter).

Ben-T and Rocketman I appreciate the brevity of your responses and totally agree with your statement but by extension could we also say that since we are discussing the effects of heavy recoil on a double gun that excessive recoil induces additional wear on the barrel lug, hinge pin, under bites and other locking mechanisms and prematurely wears or cause damage to these parts in addition to breaking stocks?

Pressure


Recoil


Pete