doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Pressure vs recoil in old guns

Let's leave those barrels on and assume there is 5-6 thou gap between the barrel hook and hinge pin to begin with. The barrels will be the sled. Repeat those strikes to the muzzles a number of times and the gap will grow...the gun will loosen due to "a force exactly like recoil without any pressure."

I understood the question to be, "Why?" I did not understand we were somehow taking sides on wear of American made guns, nor did I vote on that issue. Sorry if I misunderstood the topic. I take a look at my American guns and say what I see later.

I keep scrolling thru Rocket's complete "embedded" page. Haven't seen that before; a new level of html manipulation there. Afraid I'm beginning to see the light on this pressure as bad actor short of catastrophic destruction thing (of course I did bump my head on the fridge so could be that). Thanks for staying on the pot and labouring mightily, Don! I've assumed all along that the release of pressure is nearly instantaneous owing to the forward movement of the shot charge but perhaps a lot of mechanical devilry can occur in the very short duration of peak pressure.

Now, Bill, if high-quality [break action] shotguns are designed NOT TO flex under reasonable loads, why do so many, antique and contemporary, have the radiused root at angle between water table and standing breech. Is this attempt to avoid a stress riser a precaution against the anticipated effects of unreasonable loads only or those of all loads, reasonable and unreasonable?

jack

We have to get to the basic principles of how physis works. The examples may sound contrived, but they show the underlying physics of the situation.

They all flex. Wear can be mitiated by robust joints, low pressure, hard steel, good cleaning, and high pressure lube. But, they all will wear if used. Could a gun be worn off-face by simle cycling without firing? Wash all joints dry of lube, toss in a little grit, cycle a few hundred times, and measure. Non-firing cycling has a large movement under very low pressure. Firing has very small movement under high pressure. They will both wear the gun.

No, zero, zip, nada, mechanical joint is completely immune to wear. Good design and maintenance can make the wear small, but never eliminate it.

TB, you needed to keep reading in McIntosh's book: " . . . selected according to how little hand-work would be required FOR A FINISHED GUN OF PREDETERMINED WEIGHT." Mr. Smith wants a 12ga for upland hunting. If I look in my 1940 Shooter's Bible, I find that--assuming Smith wants a gun at the lighter end of the scale--he can get one, 26-28" barrels, right around 7 pounds. That "predetermined weight", based on Smith's order through his local dealer, is almost certainly going to end up with 4 weight barrels, to get him what he wants. If he later decides he wants a heavy waterfowler (without going to the Super Fox), 32" barrels weighing right around 8 pounds, he can get that too--but it'd be with #1 or maybe #2 barrels, to match that predetermined weight. And since we agree that the barrels are key to dealing with pressure, and since we also agree that a heavier gun will handle increased recoil better than a light gun . . . you buy your gun for the purpose in mind, and you use the loads that make the most sense for that gun and that purpose. You might well shoot those new Super-X loads in your waterfowler; you might not in your upland gun, especially if it came from the factory with 2 5/8" chambers. Especially if we're talking prior to WWII, there were still WAY more factory 12ga shells offered in 2 5/8" than 2 3/4".

As far as well-maintained shotguns being as tight as new after 100 years or more of use . . . Unless the same person has owned the gun for 100 years, or passed down detailed records of said gun's use, we don't have a clue why it's still tight as new. Might be it was never shot all that much. And if it's loose, although we can sometimes detect signs of abuse, we don't really know that either. How do we know that the gun isn't loose because of the loads shot in it? Seems to me the recoil party is in retreat there, because if it's recoil that causes wear, then more recoil than the gun was built to handle is going to shoot it loose. In fact, I think 3 or 4 people have already suggested that.

The problem with most vintage guns is this: what we know about them is anecdotal (only applies to that particular gun) and almost always incomplete. It's like the 10 year old car with 10,000 miles on the odometer, only driven back and forth to school by the little old lady teacher. Who maybe has a mechanic boyfriend who tampered with the odometer. But comparing a car to a vintage (pre-WWII or older) gun, with the car, you might well buy it from someone you know, who bought it new. FAR less likely with a vintage gun.

Didn't the English design the weight of their shotguns based on the weight of the intended pay load ?

So the various writers and researchers of Fox shotguns have wasted a lot of time.

I'm not a Fox man could you explain...

Fox barrels typically have a number on them.
1- Heaviest
2
3
4- Lightest
Unless it was struck off in finishing.

Particularly helpful in online searches as the barrel number can give you a general idea if a gun is going to be heavy or a lightweight.