doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Daly Damascus color?

At the Vintagers(2009) John Allgood of Maryland had at least 4 Lindner Dalys on his table.

10 Bore, pattern welded 30" tubes
1825 Brevette, serial 3485, Crown over Crossed Pistols
initials "A.S." - guess Albert Stobbe(founded 1865)
Game scene engraved on the bottom of the reciever
large forend bump and no proofmarks

#459 with 615 on tubes near forend-lug
with "Crown" over "V" on watertable?
Crossed Pistols over HAL high on the tubes near the forend-lug
Dolls head extension & ejectors
initials "R.S." - guess Robert Schleglemilch
interesting "Made In Prussia" stamp around the hammer screw where there was also "Charles Daly"

#2093 with 1898 near small forend with small forend bump
"Crossed Pistols" over "HAL" on Witten tubes with "R.S." initials
rectangular concealed crossbolt & sideclips on Diamond Quality


#1537 Featherweight with small forend bump
proofmarks & Crossed Pistols over HAL on Krupp tubes
concealed slanted rectangular crossbolt & sideclips
initials "R.S." - guess Richard Schuler
2 Shilling forge stamps on each tube

Approx. how many featherweights were there and when did they arrive on the scene?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Interesting 1929 Daly, with Sauer features at auction: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=140276215. Anyone recognize the tube maker's mark? I've emailed for a closer image.

Ken:

Did you get any pics of the Sauer-Daly at the GGCA display?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I'm almost positive that is the Poldi mark, there's a sheet somewhere on the site with the image, on the tubes of the all but true auction offering. This would go a long way in revealing that the maker stamped the tube type on there and could easily mix and match or stamp whatever the customer requested. I'll bet since it had "Krupp Steel" on the top rib that either in Germany or over here someone realized that it also need a Krupp steel mark on the underside. With Linder in control, I'll be it wouldn't have occurred.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

I didn't have my camera with me to photograph the "Sauer-Daly" so I'll see if those turn out. I would still call this gun a "Sauer-barrelled Lindner Daly", but I know what you mean :-). I asked my Dad to snap a few pics - hopefully they turn out.

In regard to the Featherweight Dalys - I've copied a few paragraphs below from an article I did on them for the GGCA pub about 2 years back. The Cliff Notes version is that FW Dalys have always been a source of confusion as they show up when the catalogs show weren't available. A Rosetta Stone of sorts in the form of a hang tag came was found that shed a lot of light on the mystery. In this case the FW gun hang tag listed a Daly model not found in the period caalog.

"Sometimes it only takes one small piece of new information to enable a whole lot of old research to fall into place. That new piece of information came to me recently in the form of a photo of an original factory hang tag attached to a featherweight Prussian Charles Daly hammerless gun. As a bonus, the featherweight Daly in question was an especially beautiful and minty example of a Lindner-made Daly.

Featherweight Dalys have always been a source of frustration in my research of Prussian Charles Daly guns. While there have been almost a dozen featherweight guns recorded in the Prussian Daly database, the 1894 Schoverling, Daly, and Gales (SD&G) catalog is the last catalog that I’ve found that specifically lists a separate featherweight model. There is no mention of a featherweight model in the 1899 SD&G catalog, nor in any of the dozen or so later SD&G catalogs that I own. Yet I have personally handled many featherweight Dalys that were produced well beyond that 1894 catalog date, twenty years later in some instances. In addition to their obvious light weight - 5.5 to 6.25 lbs 12 gauge guns are typical – the featherweight Dalys are identified as “featherweight” guns right on the rib.

By my estimate, the subject of this article – Charles Daly #965 - was produced circa 1902. However, neither the 1902 nor 1903 SD&G catalogs featured a specific featherweight model. Both catalogs list the model 118 (the lowest Daly offering at the time) and the model 135 (the next step up). The model 118 is a boxlock non-ejector hammerless SxS that features a dollshead extension, while the model 135 is basically identical to the model 118 except for a hair more engraving and a crossbolt extension instead of the dollshead. These models retailed for $125 and $140 respectively in 1902. Charles Daly #965 appears to be a model 135 except for the “featherweight” designation.

According to period SD&G catalogs, 12 gauge hammerless guns with 26” barrels were available in weights ranging from 5.75 – 6.75 lbs at this time. I had not been able to find a specific listing or mention of a featherweight model or featherweight option in catalogs of this Daly’s era. So the question has remained - Were the featherweight Dalys of this period a separate model (or models) or was the featherweight designation merely an option for an existing model?

The answer to that question appears on the top of the original hang tag. Charles Daly #965 is a model 125! And a superior specimen at that! So it appears that featherweight guns were actually considered different models by SD&G during this time frame. Why they were not included in the catalog advertisements (at least the catalogs that I own) as separate models is still a mystery however. I’m not willing to suggest that was always the case with the featherweight guns, but at this time, it appears that the featherweight guns were in fact separate models."


Unfortunately there are not enough FW Dalys in the database to say much about their respective rarity.

Specific FW models are NOT listed in the circa-1885 SD&G catalog. The are, however, listed in both the 1892 and 1894 SD&G catalogs, but not listed in 1895 or in the later catalogs I own. That all said there are several known Daly FW guns (marked as such, not just lightweight guns) recorded 15+ years later than the last catalog listing.

Ken

Raimey,

A late reply to your earlier post -

There are no other Prussian Dalys in the database with the initials "CFW" recorded.

Best regards,

Ken

Ken:

Maybe a consensus between us might shed some light. On all the other examples I would agree but this example has the set of 4 cavemen in addition to the intertwined "SS" for Sauer & Sohn and other than Jim Cate noting otherwise, I would say it was fully made at the Sauer plant. I think the number of cavemen was a fore-runner of the large and small Sauer crowns of quality & shooting performace. Depending on the date, HAL may have used a set of tubes off a Sauer completed gun so I invite your reasoning and note that the "HAL" was probably added as a control mark or something of the sort. Thanks for the effort and info.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey:

I think the key on this gun is the Sauer rib/barrel patent. I've noted another highest-grade Daly produced in the same time frame with the patent. The patent provides for a unique method of attaching the rib to the barrels via dovetails (very strong I'm sure but overkill IMO and likely expensive to manufacture). This patent is very prominently located on both sides of the barrels and indicated the patent registration in Germany, England, and America.

The Sauer patent was in effect at the time this Daly was produced and therefore anyone wanting this patent would have to have Sauer provide the tubes or pay some type of royalty. Given the prominent patent location advetising its use, it is something Sauer obviously was very proud of. Anecdotally, I have not seen many guns of any make with this patent so the patent never got much traction. Looking at the patent, I would guess that the cost to produce it would be high, but again the strength of the attachment would not be in question.

My thought is that the tubes for the gun were provide by Sauer, but Lindner was involved in the finishing. I base this on a couple of points - 1) presence of HAL marks on both barrels, 2) serial number sequence for the "second' serial number ahead of the barrel flats; this fits with other Lindner production, 3) stylistic elements of the gun are consistent with other Lindner (only) marked guns, 4) the only items that are not consistent with other Lindner Dalys are on the barrels to include the rib inscription. The rib inscription on this gun was only "Diamond Quality" instead of the expected, "Charles Daly Extra Fine Damascus Barrels Diamond Quality".

Again, I'm kind of scratching my head on this one and invite comments.

For the rest of the board, this gun in question is Cahrles Daly model 375 circa-1898 that clearly displayed both the Lindner and Sauer marks.

Best regards,
Ken

For those with Mr. Cate's Sauer longarm book see page 246 for serial #681, with 900 toward the forend lug on the underside of the right tube, which has the same marks.

Ken:

I really enjoy the exchange of ideas and it makes me research more diligently.

Well, let me amend my comment surrounding the quad caveman stamp. I've seen a pair, a threesum, and at max 4 and there is a reason. At the Vintagers(2009) I asked Mr. Apel(GGCA) why there were multiple Schilling or "K" in a square(Krupp stamps) on tubes and he indicated that it was just 1 stamp with 2 images. So the 4 caveman would be a single stamp of 4 caveman images. Also I revisited the keyboard lashing I received from Mr. Cate in asking about the multi-caveman stamp being quality and he adamantly(?) stated that it wasn't a quality mark but noted the approval of the craftsmen at the Sauer plant and noted completion of the weapon at the Sauer plant. In a general sense, if that doesn't define quality, then I'm at a loss as to what does. I've pulled the tubes on an early Sauer-Daly hammer drilling and it does have the quad caveman stamp as well as 2 small crowns on the forend lug and the large and small crowns on the watertable. So the quad caveman isn't a precursor to the large and small crowns. But it has, just has to have something to do with quality/quality control as Manhattan Arms examples are the only other examples I have seen until the 2009 Vintagers, where I smoked over a Heinrich Scherping built by Sauer with utilizing the Facil Princeps(thanks to the observant eye of Steven Meyer) and that patent was stamped on the sides of the tubes similar to the Daly in question. The Heinrich Scherping also had the quad caveman stamp. There's no doubt in my mind that Sauer made the Heinrich Scherping and with the Scherping and Manhattan examples, all evidence is pointing to the fact that the probability is very high that Sauer completed some Lindner stamped Daly examples. If a Linder Daly can be located with the large and small Sauer crowns, then it had to be completed at the Sauer plant due to the fact that extra effort and expense was exhausted in patterning for what I think was the small crown, but the difference between the 2 crowns is a demon into itself. All in all, I'm really looking at the bigger picture of the possible sourcing of the makers in Suhl.

The "Sauer-Daly"'s tubes each have a bore parallel single caveman stamp, an intertwined "SS" perpendicular to the bore direction and a quad caveman stamp perpendicular to the bore on the underside of the left tube. These are all in addition to the required proofmarks. I'll search from my Manhattan and if anyone has a Manhattan example, I'd like to ask that you post pics of the area on the tubes just ahead of the flats.

What might the serial number have been?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Well, upon review(we may need instant play review) and comparing to Cate's Sauer book, I'm going to have to give Steven only partial credit on the Heinrich Scherping by Sauer(may shift some to Ken), as the America patent number was 505006 which is the same as the Daly: http://www.google.com/patents?id=pf1JAAA...;q=&f=false , and in my mind all but confirms that Sauer made the Daly in question and #681 in Sauer's book.

This also begs the question are the initials "R.S." Rudolf Sauer?????

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

No question there were very strong links between Sauer and SD&G and Lindner. I guess I hesitate to declare this a wholly made Sauer gun on a couple of points.

SD&G sold Sauer guns along side its "own" Charles Daly guns for may years. Of the dozen or so brands of guns sold by SD&G, Sauers were usually second in the catalog order right behind the Dalys. Every Daly drilling I have ever seen been made by Sauer and prominently marked as having been made by Sauer (no attempt to was made to disguise the fact.) And Sauer did, in fact, briefly make a Daly gun, the model 80. In the catalog information, SD&G states that due to the volume of orders they had gone to the company that produces its drillings to manufacture the model 80. The forgings for the Lindner - Daly actions almost assuredly came from Sauer. So there were lots of close links between the three entities.

I guess I'll flip the question around the other way - i.e,. if the gun was made entirely by Sauer, here are the questions I am having a hard time explaining. If the gun was made entirely by Sauer, why are the Lindner marks there at all? Why is the gun not marked like the other Sauer Dalys (drillings, model 80) showing Sauer as the maker on the barrels? Daly was certainly not trying to hide the maker of its guns. Why is the serial numbering sequence of the second number near the forend consistent with Lindner production to SD&G and other makers/retailers? Why is it that the Sauer marks have only been noted (other than the drillings and model 80) on Daly guns bearing the 505006 patent?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to noodle this one through. No question Sauer was heavily involved in making this gun, but I hesitate to give Sauer all the credit on this one. It is definitely an interesting puzzle.

Best regards,
Ken