doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Post WWII J P Sauer - Suhl markings

The four ring Krupp steel mark has been discussed several times, Geno seems to be correct in that it was a higher grade of steel used by Krupp, and it appears on post war guns. Here's one example from my guns, there are others:

That is the same text and logo that is stamped on my barrels, including the "S.G.1".

I had not found earlier discussions of the four ring logo and would appreciate the reference.

Is the four ring logo actually for a Krupp product, or is it an imitation? How long was it used?

FJS

I don't think Krupp had anything to do with it and it is some Russian steel variant, which furnace, I can't say. I've looked at a few examples some with the rings, some without and there's nothing I can see that relates back to Krupp. SpeZial Gewehr Lauf Stahl was Krupp's and this type steel was to mimic Krupp's. The phrase is odd in that it mixes English & German. I can't find any reference to 4 Rings for Krupp.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It appears that I (and apparently others as well) have made a poorly founded assumption, based on many examples of the well known 3 ring Krupp logo. I have three examples of the above 4 ring logo, all on post war J P Sauer guns, one dated 1957 and two dated in 1956. The logo stamps are all as per the photo above. I simply assumed that, since the famous 3 ring logos were Krupp, this 4 ring mark was as well. But, NONE of them say Krupp!! Since this was after the Russian take-over of the Suhl gun making factories, I believe I'll now go with the WAG above made by Raimey, which attributes the steel and the marking to a Russian variant, or counterfit of Krupp.

I also remember another German logo with 4 rings: Auto Union. That might have factored into my initial belief this marking was a genuine German (Krupp) mark, although the Auto Union 4 ring logo is straight horizontal.

That likely makes the values of post war Sauers even lower, at least IMO. I have shot this steel, and it handles modern loads well, but I also don't think this is a Krupp product. That'll be my stand until proven otherwise.

Geno:

Any idea of the barrel steel came from Sevestal: http://www.severstal.com/eng/about/company_history/ ?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Apparently the Russian did know much of components of Krupp's Spezial Gewehr Lauf Stahl, patented in 1896???:


0.61% Carbon
0.04% to 0.43% Phosphrous
0.65% Manganese
0.65%(??) Silicon
0.04% to 0.43% Sulphur

And I'm sure other countries did also.

Sure Chief it is a pretty wild guess but with some foundation. As Geno posted earlier, when the craftsmen of Suhl, of those who were left, expended/extinquished their stock, where else could they turn for tube steel? Also I'm sure Russian was a big client and many have prefered Russian steel??? First of all it's always about economics and just like the hypothesis of the Belgians making Krupp steel scattergun tubes for the American market, as long as the composition, or percentage of components, of the tube steel is very close to the same, I don't know that I would devalue the post WWII German examples without knowing the same. If an example is made by the same craftsmen with the same components as pre-WWII examples, although maybe with components from a different facility with a different stamp, how does that make it a cheap product? The same techniques apply today as it is much easier to build a plant manufacturing your product in another country with the same components and with their labour as it is to import the finished product or import components and make the product. One doesn't really know what they have until it is broken down into it's primary components.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Well, I'm going to have to somewhat revise my statement to include the loss of craftsmen and post WWII sourcing, which between 1949, which saw the division of Germany, and 1953 lead to a dip in quality and I think is what gave post WWII examples a bad name due to the fact that the sourcing of the West had become non-existant and the fractured group of Suhl craftsmen "made do" with what they could find and expending existing stock. There was a revolt by the German craftsmen, and I'm sure Suhl was strongly in the mix with the revolt being founded on the fact of not being able to deliver a quality product which was tradition and expected by the Suhl craftsmen, in 1953 which was brought under tight control by the folks in charge and Russian took full economic control of Suhl, and I'm sure East Germany/DDR. So taking control also meant providing sourcing possibilities or components. So in September 1955
Izhevsk crucible steel grade 50A was substituted for Krupp steel and Izhevsky introduced the "Four Rings" to distinguish the two. I think the Izhevsky "Four Ring" steel had an elastic limit at 50 kg/mm^2 and a failure at 80 kg/mm^2. There numbers are accurate but I'm not sure about the description of the limits.

So let me say that I think that the bad press stamped upon post WWII German arms wasn't due to the craftsmanship per se, but actually to the inability of sourcing quality components. And I believe this to have occured between 1950 & 1953. As always I entertain any and all info or opinions.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Vice versa, Raimey. 50A elastic limit 55 kg/sq.mm and failure limit 80 kg/sq.mm.
Elastic limit means force, when steel begins to stretch out. Failure limit, when steel breaks.

Well thank you Geno for the correction as well as putting the square on my units.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I appreciate your collective insight!

It being outside of my usual realm of interests, I did not understand what I was looking at when I acquired this gun. It turns out to have been an interesting excursion into one of history's aberrations. Made by a people whose final misfortune was to live under prolonged Soviet occupation, managed by people with a perspective and ethic that we do not share, they probably did the best that they could under those circumstances. But that is all past for 20 years now.

Still, here remains a strong, well fitted, tight gun, with an interesting heritage that fits me well and is fun to shoot. Thanks again!

FJS