doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com I read it in a magazine...

This is always an interesting topic. But it sometimes gets unruly(usually by me) and seldom changes anyone's mind.
Here are my final comments on recoil. If you want to reduce recoil, start with the basics that cause it(true recoil). (1)Reduce the shot payload. Dropping from 1-1/8 oz. to 1 oz., better yet, to 7/8 oz. will reduce recoil dramatically. The birds will never know the difference but your shoulder sure will. (2) reduce the velocity by using less powder. 1150 fps will break clay targets and kill birds just as dead as 1300 fps. There is no magic powder. If one powder produced less recoil while giving the same velocity, that would have been the only powder anyone on the market, for 100 years. (3)Increase the weight of the gun. (4) Install a good recoil pad(for reduced felt recoil).

Back in the early years of back-boring and forcing cone lengthening, when the truth was important to the American Rifleman, a reader asked if these (then) new modifications could reduce recoil. The AR answered that "nothing you can do to the inside of the barrel CAN reduce recoil, unless it also reduces velocity". That was true then and it is true now. The only thing that has changed is that now the AR is more concerned with pleasing sponsors and less concerned with printing the truth, for its readers.
Thanks to all,

Jim, you left out one thing. Stock design makes a huge difference in felt recoil.

How true; How appropriate; how brilliant.

I have ben away from home the past week & while I did get a little computer time it was limited, so just had about 6 pages of this thread to catch up.

Larry you best go back & study that Alliant manual "MUCH, MUCH More Carefully". You will find they were in fact not comparing American Select with such powders as Unique, Herco, Blue Dot etc at all but in fact with to quote them "A Typical ""FAST" Powder". They used 2 entire pages in this old guide I have (copyright 1996) showing "Typical" pressure curves of two powders & stating the lessened "Felt" recoil from American Select was due to its ""Slower"" burn than a typical Fast Burn powder. This was not even dealing with hunting, magnum etc loads which push heavier shot charges to higher velocities & produce heavier recoil for rather obvious reasons. NO INDEED, it was dealing strictly with target loads, & I ask What poweder is more typical of a fast burn powder for target loads than ""RED DOT"". The whole discussion centered around the fact it burned ""Slower"". In fact the only other powder mentioned on those two pages is Red Dot, & though they did not "Directly State" this was the comparsion powder it was rather obvious. This guide also give a "Relative Quickness" figure based on Bullseye as 100%. ReDot is 94.1%, American Select 81% & Green dot 77.9% with Unique @ 61.6% so American Select & Green Dot are so close together one wonders why they chose to make both.
If you cannot understand that is diametrically opposed to Thomas' theory then you best go back to "Understanding Reading 101".
I will see if I can figure out how to post a scan for all to see, I don't want anyone taking this just on my word, but let the facts speak for themselves. If not I will be hollering for someone to post it for me from an E-Mail once I get it scanned in.
Further for all there is a very good discussion on recoil contained in Hatcher's Notebook. He there assigns a value to the velocity of the escaping gasses as 4700 fps. Since this is an extremely hard item to measure he further states that for most shotgun, pistols & ordinary rifles a very good approximation of the total recoil element can be obtained by multiplying the powder wt times 1.5. Thus if you were calculating the recoil for say 1oz (437.5grs) shot 30 grs of wadding with a 20 grain powder charge you would use 30 for the powder rather than 20.
Note also that when we speak of slow & fast powders tihis is a relative term, in the total powder spectrum ""ALL"" shotgun powders are Fast.
The reasoning Alliant used is theoreticly true & corresponds exactly with that laid out by FNB25 several posts back. With all due respect to both, I am at this point in time throughly convinced that within the realm of powders suitable for a given load the various factors more or less cancel one another & that differences are of too mimnute a nature to be determined by human feel, unless there is some vast differences in the basic make up of the load.
Based upon IMI's statements, which I have no reason to dispute, I can only surmise they were in fact & indeed testing one of the dense powders against one of the older bulk powders which greatly different wt of the powder charge would account for an ""ACTUAL"" increase in the recoil. If I am not badly mistaken bulk powders had a far longer common usage in the UK than in the US. DuPont bulk shotgun powder was available even here until around the 1960's though by then was not too often used, & was predominately sold to re-loaders.
The fact that Thomas gave us ""NO"" particulars of the test as to what in fact was used, makes it worthless for determing much of anything & his reasoning is simply Ludicrous, certainly not worthy of anyone Claiming to be an Engineer. I am not an engineer but in 35 years of machine shop experience with most of it related to the aero-space industry I certainl hob-nobbed with a lot of good ones & can simpl;y not imagine a single one of them coming up with the conclusion that the recoil was simply "Too Quick" to feel from the fast powder.

Hi Daryl,
I left it out deliberately because I was mainly talking about true recoil. Regarding stock fit, I believe the cut of the butt, commonly referred to as pitch, is important, when correct, as it will give maximum contact between the butt and the shoulder pocket, spreading the recoil impact out over the most meat. I know lots of people like to say things like proper stock fit will "eliminate" the effects of recoil. If that were true, millions of people are wasting billions of dollars, every year, on various gadjets and internal barrel magic, some that work and many that are mainly BS.
In any case, I would call the effect of stock fit important, but not "huge". And it has no effect on true recoil, which is the best place to start, IMO.
Thank you,

Miller, comparing fast to slow . . . doesn't that depend on what you're comparing something to?? Take a baseball pitcher who's a junkman, lots of slow curves and changeups. His fastball, even if only mid-80's, is going to look fast in comparison. Bring in Nolan Ryan, however, and 85 will look very slow.

Just like you, my information comes straight from an Alliant reloader's guide--but about 10 years newer than yours. (Don't know if that necessarily makes any difference.) I quoted straight off a list in which Alliant says: "These are listed in the order of decreasing burn rates." Same order as yours: Bullseye 1, Red Dot 2, then American Select and Green Dot. But addressing the issue of frequently-used shotgun powders, and recognizing that Bullseye's "principal use" is in handgun loads, the only faster common Alliant shotgun powder is Red Dot . . . while there are 3 Alliant shotgun powders that are slower. So they are faster burning, compared to Unique, Blue Dot, and Herco. And depending on what one considers a "target" load, there are plenty of relatively mild 1 1/8 oz 12ga offerings using either Unique or Herco. And when you drop down to 20ga, you get pretty much nothing but GD, Unique and Herco in 7/8 oz target loads (although I shoot a really nice 3/4 oz 20ga load with American Select). And it's not like recoil disappears when you're shooting a 20ga--especially if you're shooting 7/8 oz target loads in both the 12 and the 20, and the 20 is likely to be a lighter gun.

Jim, when you brought up recoil pads, I thought you were soliciting comments on felt recoil, too. Can we say that stock design , then, is sort of huge ?

When the weather is nice on Sunday afternoons, a group will wander over to a friend's ranch and shoot some clay birds. We usually bring two or three guns each and do a bit of shooting and some show and tell. I try to bring the same gauge each time to be able to use a box or two of the same shells. When a gun is interesting, others shoot it , too. What we have noticed is that some guns "kick" more than others, using the same ammo. Sure, weight could have something to do with it, but not always. Some guns slap your cheek, and sometimes the lightest gun feels like it kicks less. This happened a few weeks ago with a 5 1/4# Manufrance Ideal. I fully expected, as did a couple of other shooters, for it to kick more, but not so. We kind of laughed about it and might give it some "carrying" time this fall.

Hi Daryl,
I would surely expect that 5-1/2 lb gun to kick the snot out of anyone. It IS a 12 gauge, yes? My 5-1/2 lb AYA 28 ga. kicks me as hard with normal 3/4 oz. loads as my 8 lb. 12, with 7/8 oz. loads(in the 12). i'm getting excited about the Nimrod Classic. We're starting to check out lodging in the area. If you have any recommendations, I would appreciate an email about some.

I'll go along with "sort of huge".
Thank you,

Oh Larry, Larry;
Yes yes, I see where your info is coming from. My old manual here has the exact same wording under "Remarks" for the powders.
Red Dot = More "100 Straights" have been shot with Red Dot than all other powders combined'
American Select = Our newest premium target powder, Ultra clean burning, Slow pressure rise for less shot deformation, tighter patterns, less felt recoil.
Green Dot = Produces tight, uniform patterns and soft felt recoil in 1 and 1 1/8 oz 12ga shotshell loads.
Unique = A versatile all-around powder for over 100 years, handgun to shotgun.
Herco = A proven powder since 1920 for the ultimate in 12ga, 1¼ oz upland game loads.
Blue Dot = The powder of choice for 1¼ to 2 oz Magnum shotshell Hunting loads.

So Larry answer your own Question, to what indeed, are they comparing the less/soft felt recoil of American Select & Green Dot. You say they did not make such statements about the slower powders, I say they "Also did Not " say it about the faster burning Red Dot or Bullseye.. Secondary use for Bullseye is listed as light 12ga target loads.
In this older manual which was in fact introducing the new American Select, as I pointed out they devoted two pages to showing exactly what the comparsion was to, "A Typical Fast Burning Target Powder" That Larry was "Red Dot".

I quote directly from this guide;
""Alliant Powder's ballistics research has demonstrated if it has a FAST burn rate and QUICK pressure rise, it can give you flattened and deformed pellets"" After some discussion of the effect on patterns this follows; ""There's another side benefit of American Select's burn rate, too-less felt recoil. It's more like a PUSH than a PUNCH, so at the end of a long day, you'll be ready for those late shoot-offs.

A "Push" is slow in comparsion to a "PUNCH" Larry. This is the ""EXACT OPPOSITE"" of Thomas' reasoning.
If you still can't understand that, then I have made a Terrible Mistake, I had credited you with having at least some intelligence.
At this point I am not even trying to determine whether Thomas or Alliant is right , but to simply get you to see they are opposite in their conclusions. Personally, you see, I think they are both wrong. I think "BOTH" IMI & Alliant were/are puttting out Propaganda for the purpose of an attempt to increase sales of a particular line of powder. It matters not they were already selling the powder they were supposed to be improving upon, this is done everyday in advertizing. Just look at all the products which are "Perfect" today & tomorrow they'll introduce the "New & Improved" version.
Remember the old Burma Shave roadside signs in which they so ran down a mug/soap/brush method of shaving. Do an E-Bay search on Burma Shave & see just how many Mug/Soap/Brush combos come up bearing a Burma Shave logo. Wonder where they all came from, surely Burma Shave would not have bad-mouthed a combo they were in fact selling ""WOULD THEY"".
There is an old saying that about 98% of advertizing is not to help you solve a problem, but to convince you that you actually have a problem.Once convinced you have the problem then you will likely look to the one who convinced you for the solution. Most people would have never felt they had a problem with recoil while shooting mild target loads from a heavy gun had they never been so inundated with "Snake Oil" cures for it.

2-piper:(quote) Most people would have never felt they had a problem with recoil while shooting mild target loads from a heavy gun had they never been so inundated with "Snake Oil" cures for it.(quote) Amen.

I, for one, am still not convinced I have a problem with recoil from shotgun loads. This whole thread just amazes me, that so many people actually think the difference in recoil from one 1 1/8 oz. load to another 1 1/8 oz. load at anything within 200 fps of each other is even worth mentioning. Regardless of the differences in powder charge weight, NONE of them kick enough to be even worthy of mention.

Much ado about nothing.