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Joined: Jul 2010
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 707 |
I just completed the measurements on my drilling's chamber cast. Would one of you that knows the measurements of 8x58 Sauer and the other rare drilling cartridges please look at the measurements taken and advise me to what I own? The last picture in the drilling series is the measured drawing of the cartridge. https://moritz.homeserver.com/PhotoViewer/album634135129003437500/index.xml
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 707
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 707 |
Interesting how close I got by eyeballing the chamber and using a caliper before the casting.
The cartridge's rim is .500" (actually it is .510 on the casting)
The base of the cartidge after the rim is about .434" wide. (actually it is .438)
5/8" into the chamber, the cartridge is about .415" wide. (it is indeed .415")
At 2.3" into the chamber, there is a constriction that is either a really tiny shoulder or it is the lams, I can't tell. (actually 2.285)
The bore at muzzle is measuring .316 to .325 depending how I measure but this is a fuzzy number. (bore past chamber is actually .323)
Considering how hard it was to make a simple chamber cast, I don't think I'll try that again. Basic measurements with a caliper seemed close enough.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763 Likes: 8
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763 Likes: 8 |
Yes this certainly seems a 8x58R Sauer chamber (IMHO of course; I can't locate my pertinent books right now). As for the chamber cast, I just melt the nearest old candle and put the cast to fridge overnight. Works nicely for this purpose and I too find cerrosafe metal casting unneeded. And BTW I do use shooting glasses when melting and pouring wax. With kind regards, Jani
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 707
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 707 |
So here we are at a fairly scandalous question:
This cartridge is going to be a nightmare to allocate and therefore this gun is not going to be any fun at all to shoot.
I just ran the measurements and it looks like the chamber could be recut to 8x57JRS. The barrel is about .323 so the .324 bullets should go through without a problem. The proof marks on the gun are close enough that I'm not certain it would even "knock it out of proof". The era of the gun was correct for 8x57. The measurements of the barrel are right to accept 8x57. Guns like this most commonly had 8x57. And the only proof I have right now on the gun that alludes to cartridge beyond 8mm is a 58, which could easily have been the chamber length of an 8x57 JRS.
What do you think? Unfortunately, not much rifling left so the best I can hope for is minute-of-boar accuracy at 50 yards.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763 Likes: 8
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763 Likes: 8 |
8x58R sauer cases are not that hard to get so you can load yourself or have it loaded by a custom loader. If you can get a gunsmith to rechamber to 8x57JRS be aware that this powerful cartridge operates at much higher pressures and the conversion would certainly require reproof. Old drillings with seemingly allmost no rifling left can sometimes surprise us so presume nothing and rather do a test firing (before any conversion). With kind regards, Jani
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,913 Likes: 201
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,913 Likes: 201 |
I just ran the measurements and it looks like the chamber could be recut to 8x57JRS. The barrel is about .323 so the .324 bullets should go through without a problem. The proof marks on the gun are close enough that I'm not certain it would even "knock it out of proof". The era of the gun was correct for 8x57. The measurements of the barrel are right to accept 8x57. Guns like this most commonly had 8x57. And the only proof I have right now on the gun that alludes to cartridge beyond 8mm is a 58, which could easily have been the chamber length of an 8x57 JRS.
I think it should be left as original unless the bore is spent, which may lead to a reline, etc. If the bore is rough, jacketed bullets might bridge the gap. 8x58 Sauer(or 8x58 Collath) is what the chamber is and is an interesting round. Fresh ammo may not be available but you could either use 360 BPE or maybe even 38-55 and convert it to 8x58 Sauer. To answer one of your previous questions, the longarm was made in the Zella Sankt Blasii/Mehlis region and proofed at the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse. Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246 Likes: 2 |
The retailer of this drilling was not an unknown gunmaker in the east, but Carl Leberecht (1848-1933) in Amberg, Bavaria, or his son Karl Leberecht jr. The gun was proofed at the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse, evidenced by the ledger number 511. Suhl never used such ledger numbers. So it was most likely made there, and not by one of the better known Suhl makers.The leberechts held patents for an automatic safety and a 1913 one for a barrel selector on a drilling. The C.Leberecht shop in Amberg existed u ntil a few years ago, when the last Leberecht was slain by a robber.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,913 Likes: 201
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,913 Likes: 201 |
Nice intrepretation and find Axel E. I bet it took you a bit to pull that rabbit out of the hat. I don't know that anyone stated that the firearms merchant was unknown, but that the name and location was unreadable for the moment. The fact that the slots were cut may indicate that after a firearms merchant received their funds and the business transaction complete, they really didn't care if their name remained on the longarm. They would just move on to the next one. Now I know that some firearms merchants offered a warranty, but I don't know if all did. Who would have thought that 100 years later that the marks would be so scruntinized.
Kind Regards,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,913 Likes: 201
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,913 Likes: 201 |
So it was most likely made there, and not by one of the better known Suhl makers. Axel E.: Can we get a clarification on the "there" location: Suhl or Zella-Mehlis? Did you mean Z-M instead of Suhl or was it that some of the Suhl craftsmen were on the outs with the Suhl guild and they had to submit their longarms to the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse? Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246 Likes: 2 |
For most of the time there was a bitter rivalry between the neighbouring gunmaking centers Suhl and Zella-Mehlis, only because of this rivalry there were two govenment proofhouses. If a gun is proofed in Zella-Mehlis, it was made in Zella-Mehlis. Suhl gunmakers would buy in parts or complete guns from Z-M, but if they actually made the gun, they would give it to the "more respectable" Suhl proofhouse. The Suhl proofhouse had to accept any gun made at a Suhl adress, but not those made in Z-M, and vice-versa. Instead of reinventing the wheel, the Suhl gunmakers would often buy in guns made and proofed in Z-M and resold them under their own name, for instance most falling block rifles, but no Z-M maker (regarded as "cheapos" compared to the Suhl ones) would buy in Suhl made guns.
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