doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Help Requested to ID a Pre-War Drilling

Have you noticed that the word "Monopol" is also incorporated into the Witten steel trademark? "Monopol" was then also a "Trademark" for a better-quality barrel steel by that company. There are no other markings that hint to Belgium. Trademarks were not internationally protected as they are now. Often lesser makers used marks that intentionally resembled those of "name" competitors. Note also the "3 rings", resembling the Krupp trademark! There is no need to speculate about a Liege/Francotte connection! "Monopol", as well as "Ideal", "Triumph" and other such euphemistic expressions, were used by many makers and dealers for many different products then. FI I remember cigars named "Monopol", and I know about half a dozen entirely different gun actions called "Ideal" by their hopeful inventors or dealers. IMHO the illegible letter under the anchor stands for the maker, while the Z stands for Zella. The neighbouring towns Zella and Mehlis were only amalgamated to Z-M in the 1920s.
The Gusstahlfabrik (cast steel factory) Carl Berger&Co, later Gusstahlwerk Witten AG, then led by Carl's son Louis Constans Berger, in the 1860s pioneered the use of barrel steel. Besides providing the steel for the Dreyse needlerifles of the Franco-German war of 1870-71, they exported lots of barrel steel to the USA in the early 1870s. Among these exports were large amounts of special-order, large diameter round stock. Their main American customer was Colt in Hartford. So your "all American" Colt Peacemaker most likely has a barrel and cylinder made of Witten steel!
This Drilling was almost certainly made in Zella-Mehlis, evidenced by the finer underlever details, before 1911. In 1911 the Z-M proofhouse made the change from the old-fashioned gauge numbers to tenths of millimeters. So we can narrow down the dating from April 1, 1893, when the 1891 prooflaw came to force, and 1911. According to the German 1891 proof tables the gauge number 67,49 stands for a plug gauge of 10.41mm = .410" diameter that would pass the barrel. The next larger number, 62,78 = 10.67mm = .420" did not pass the barrel at the proofhouse then. These numbers, as the later mm numbers, stand for the bore or land diameter, not for the groove/bullet one! You have to add the depth of the grooves to get to the bullet diameter. Without a chamber cast determining the chambering is impossible. The 11.15x65R aka 11mm Drillingspatrone was only one of the series of LK cartridges, all based on the brass 36 gauge/.410 case. These once came in lengths of 40, 50, 52, 55 and 60 mm besides the already mentioned 65mm. But in the 1890s there were as many varieties as in Heinz Mixed Pickles, as apparently every country gunsmith on opening his own shop first designed his own proprietary rifle cartridge.

Why would a German maker use the French word for monopoly?
The trademarks were protected. They were protected under the Paris Convention for the Protection of Industrial Property of March 20, 1883.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Conve...racting_parties

The Patent Laws of All Nations: United States, C. R. Brodix, 1886
Article VIII. A trade-name shall be protected in all the countries of the Union, without the necessity of registration, whether it form part or not of a trade or commercial mark.

http://books.google.com/books?id=2JcLAAA...883&f=false

Pete

Sorry, but "Monopol" is the German spelling for monopoly. A French may spell it "monopol", but more often they spell it "monopole", as it is on the gun shown: "Monopole-Liege"!

"Monopol" is even the name of a German magazine. BTW the same spelling is also used in Slovenian language. The origin is Greek, from monos and polein.
With kind regards,
Jani

If you care for googling "Marke Monopol", German for "monopoly trademark", you will get about 290 000 results. "Monopol" stands for a long established line of household tools, probably as old as that Drilling, a tobacco company equally old, a razor/cutlery trademark from Solingen, a jeans company and so on. There also was a coalmine named "Zeche Monopol", founded 1891, in Bergkamen, near Witten. Trademarks were only protected for a specified group of products, so one company may use it for household items, the next for razors, another for tobaccos and so on. So, even if Francotte registered "Monopole-Liege" some time, as spelled in French on the gun, other gunmakers were free to use "Monopol Drilling" on their guns. Even if one gunmaker had protected Monopol for his guns, the Witten steelworks still could register it for some sort of steel. It may even have been the other way around: As "Monopol" already was a popular German trademark at that time, Francotte quickly registered "Monopole-Liege"in Belgium to get an advantage in the German market.
And, even if Francotte (btw, which one? There were 7 gunmakers of that name in Liege!) registered "Monopol" in Belgium, it was left to the courts if this registration had any priorority and was valid in Germany. Apparently all companies using "Monopol" shied away from lawsuits for good reason.

Axel:
I was curious when you were going to surface with your expertise. Maybe your Monopol stogies were made in Liege by Auguste Francotte??? I'll take credit for the rabbit chase of Monopol for Auguste Francotte, because Belgian makers registered trademarks while the German makers did not. Now on the Monopol drilling I do not see the "Monopole" spelling, which is found on the top rib of a Belgian double. During the 1890s there were many gunmaking partnerships such as H. Pieper/Sauer, H. Leue & Greener, etc. I would like to see if Witten registered the Monopol trademark and the sourcing lines converge and become blurred. I wouldn't assume that all 3 tubes were of Witten steel and it is odd that there isn't some type of steel stamp recipe on the underside of the tubes. Pour it on Axel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I forgot to mention that some Zella-Mehlis examples were proofed as early as 1901 and possibly earlier. Wes' February 1911(ZM proof rules - September 1911) proofed drilling below as a script "E" in the same position of the "T" on the Monopol but also wears the appropiate "Crown" over "N".





Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hello Raimey, Axel, Pete, et al...

I'm still trying to get over this �berflu, and more-or-less still feel as if I've been run over by a freight train. As such, I am limiting the time I spend at my desk in front of my computer.

Thank you once and all for your continued input.

So Axel, by your best estimation, to whom might you attribute the manufacture of this Drilling? Or is it premature to speculate as to the identity of the manufacturer? Am I correct in understanding the consensus is shifting away somewhat from an attribution to Francotte and Liege? Pete, I would appreciate your thoughts as well... Raimey, thank you for your continued input... this has been one heck of a learning experience for me.

Also, Run With the Fox - thank you for passing on the contact information of your friends. I would only ask you please tell me your name as well as I can say, "So-and-so suggested I write you," and thank you in advance for the same.

Cheers,

Chris

I've gazed at the Witten steel stamp for some time and it appears that the term "Monopol" on the left tube is to be coupled with the term "Drilling" on the right tube and notes the model or a trademark, having little relationship with the steel type. I've seen single "T" stamps on tubes similar to the frame stamp and one guess for the mechanic would be Fritz Triebel of Zella Sankt Blasii. But as usual there are others like K. Terling of Zella-Mehlis as well as Fritz Thomas. The overall effort is a combination of individual efforts by the S.S. craftsman who may have performed the tube work and also was a barrel knitter with the T mechanic was an action guy. And this doesn't even begin to include a stab at the stock maker.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

-- Yes, but monopol/ monopole-- George/Georges. Just like our "pals' the Limeys- viz: honor/honour, color/colour) the Frogs like to add extra letters as well. Monopol is the word in German for a Monopoly, and it was in use long before either the "Robber Barons", Teddy R and the "Trust Busters" or even Parker brothers (NOT the gun boys in Meriden Conn) developed the board game in the mid-1930's--

Indeed, why would any German company want to have anything to do with anything French- those two countries have been at each other's throats (and most likely, groins as well) for centuries--To compare any weapon made in France, except possibly the Georges (damn extra "s" again) Granger doubles and those damn Darnes that don't tolerate reloads well- with the precision, skill of assembly and overall quality of a German or Austrian made firearm--

WW1 and later WW11 (when Herr Adolph decided to pay the Frogs back for their harsh reparations that bankrupted Germany in the post WW1 years)- compare the French military weapons with those of the German forces- no comparison at all. And what a numbnutted idea was the Maginot line- built to prevent another invasion of French soil by the feared "Hun"- with fixed gun positions facing East towards the expected line of attacking forces--so the German Wehrmacht sappers and engineers went behind the cement bunkers and blew them to shreds with explosives--

Now the Belgies- sure, good FN at Liege- so good that capturing that vast manufacturing complex was a high priority for the Germans- invading Holland gave them another area of access to the North sea, and windmills and wooden shoes up the ying-yang- but no strategic arms plants in Holland--

Another reason possibly that the French and their overall lack of morals, solid government and good hygiene would be looked down on with contempt by neighboring European countries can be expressed in a short couplet- I still have the translation into French, from a lady friend who was a language major at Oberlin and studied at the Sorbonne for two summer vacation period while at that college in Northern Ohio- goes about like this: Le Francais, ils sont une course la plus curieuse, ils combattent avec leurs pieds, et font l'amour avec le visage!!