doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com stock refinishing

Mike Campbell,
When you use this waterlox product, do you use a small amount and rub it in like is done with fine oil finishes? Does it give you that same deep look that comes from the slowly rubbed repetative process?
What is it that you like about waterlox?
Regards, Jake

Mike,
which version do you use?
Do they only come in gallon size?

Jake,
There are no shortcuts to a perfect finish. I use the same technique of sealing, wet sanding to fill pores and rubbing for luster and touch with every product I use. When I finish a stock I expect to invest 15 minutes a night, most every night for a month. I judge the different finishes by how easy they apply, drying time, imperviousness to water and chemicals, toughness & dutrability, "re-touch-ability" and ease of attaining just the right luster. Name any one I've mentioned and I can tell you just where they came up short.

Builder,

I now use the Satin Oil Finish and if you click on the drop-down arrow you'll see it's available online in quarts and 2oz bottles. Use the dealer locator and you'll find it at TruValue stores and woodworking stores. I just bought a quart locally for $22.

Like Laurel Mtn Permalyn, it comes as a "penetrating sealer" or an "oil finish." I've used both Permalyn and Waterlox sealers to do entire guns, start to finish. That's what Joe Balicki does with Permalyn sealer in his excellent video. Trouble is, ANY clear, transparent finish will dry to a gloss, especially if you're a fan of a very thin top coat as I am. The time honored way to get a low gloss is to "rub out" a high gloss finish, essentially scratching up the surface with a fine abrasive so it reflects less light. For various reasons, I've never been completely satisfied with the process.

The other, less common route to a low gloss is to use a finish with a "flattener" in it. Basically, it has some very fine solids suspended in it, making the oil look cloudy. It will dry to a lower gloss, can still be rubbed to smooth out imperfections and give a silky surface, but it will never get a high shine. Waterlox is the best "satin" oil I've tried.

Read their website. They've been around nearly a hundred years. A Waterlox finish is tough enough to WALK on, and we're talking just a couple superthin coats, not a plastic, bar top buildup. They claim Waterlox will withstand boiling water(I haven't tried). Even if they're exagerating, stands to reason it ought to repel rain pretty well and it does.

My comp gun gets cheeked 20,000 times a year. The combination of my beard and facial oil has forced me to use finishes with a higher ratio of polyurethane than I'd like to keep from abrading/staining the comb. Waterlox is the nearest thing to an oil finish I've ever used that will withstand the abuse.

Finishes are a very personal thing if you do your own and we have different criteria, so it won't be for everyone. But even if you like the annual rub-down with rottenstone/linseed routine, you can still start with Waterlox.

Mike,
Thanks for taking the time to anwer my questions. Do you apply it in a similar fashion to Tru Oil - put a drop on finger and rub stock or do you use something to apply it. Do you put it on thicker than Tru Oil?

Milt

Milt,

I rarely use the fingertip technique. Take a tiny drop on your finger and the first thing you do is put a puddle on the wood, right? Then you try to spread it as thinly and evenly as possible; invariably, I end up with a streak here, a drip there, or I keep going until it gets too tacky and I leave a fingerprint. I prefer to use a 3" square of non-absorbent, lint free cloth (T-shirt works) stretched tightly around my index finger. I dip it in the oil and wipe it on as thinly and quickly as possible. I've also used brown paper towel like you find in a public restroom, not the super absorbant kitchen type. My grandaughter gave me a package of gun cleaning squares as a stocking stuffer this Christmas; they work well,too.

This brings up a characteristic of finishes I refer to as "tack time." How thinly and how long can you spread it around before it starts to get tacky? In this regard, boiled linseed oil rates A+, right up there with motor oil....cures about as fast, too. Tru-oil has pretty good tack-time. Unfortunately, Waterlox comes up a bit short in this department. But I can get around it by using a cloth dampened with the finish as an applicator and working as fast as posssible. I'd say, working on just the butt stock, it takes me about 90 seconds to apply one coat. Fortunately, even though it tacks quickly and I can see tiny streaks when I'm done, it does tend to level itself substantially in the next 20 minutes or so. The next night, I apply another. Maybe a third microscopically thin coat and I'll be able to feel some slight imperfections in the finish, maybe a dust particle or two.

About every fourth coat, I use 4-0 steel wool dampened with the oil for a LIGHT rub down, wipe it off with a dry cloth and immediately apply the first coat of another 3-coat series. Somewhere around 30 coats and I'll be done. I'll give it a final 4-0 rub out, possibly also with rottenstone, and do a last, final wipe with 50/50 oil/mineral spirits.

With Tru-oil and other linseed-based products, I've moved too quickly and built up coats over others that weren't fully cured. I've had finished stocks sit for 2 months before checkering them, only to smell linseed oil when I make the first cut. I've never experienced cut-through when rubbing out Waterlox or found sub-surface, uncured finish when checkering.

regards, Mike

Mike,

Thank you for your post and your work looks very nice.

I am a little confused from looking at the Web Site exactly which product you are using. Am guessing it is the Waterlox Original Satin Finish. I see there is also a Waterlox Oil-Modified Urethane - Satin XL-89, which uses the word "oil" in the name. Would you please advise which you prefer.

Thanks again for your post. Any other tips for rookies like me would be greatly appreciated. Have three stocks to work on this winter but will do them one at a time to see how they come out.

Best to you.

tim

"Am guessing it is the Waterlox Original Satin Finish."

That's it, Tim.

If you want to try it, I'd recommend you buy a quart of it and also a can of Dust Off or some other aerosol dust cleaner. When you open the can, remove enough to fill a small, 2-3 ounce bottle. As you replace the lid, blow the inert gas into the can constantly as you lower the lid. If you want to be really thorough about it, do the whole operation inside a plastic bag. Any of the tung- or linseed oil-based finishes will set up in the can if there's air in it. No big deal if you're working out of a 2 ounce bottle, but a quart is a lot to lose.

Don't know what your woodworking experience is, but even if it's considerable I'd recommend you check out these essays. These are a couple that cover stock finishing very well and I happen to agree with all their advice...

Pete Hiatt has a good one right here on doublegun...

http://www.doublegunshop.com/phiatt2.htm

and here's one I stumbled on and saved...

http://riflestocks.tripod.com/

Winter is the time to tackle them. I'm not in a particularly humid area but, even so, the oils start giving me trouble about late March. I try to complete my finishing jobs Dec-Feb, then start on the checkering. Good luck and you can PM me with any specific questions.

regards, Mike

Mike,

Thank you so very much. I may take you up on the PM offer should I run into problems.

I also will study both the links.

Best to you.

tim

Mike Campbell.
Excellant posts and advise, as you guys may know, I do a fair (AKA a lot) of stock finishing using old traditional recipes based on Linseed Oil.But being fully aware and working in a commercial environment.(Did I use the word impatient?).We all have to be aware of modern technology and available products.To this end I fully endorse everything Mike as advised and would offer this tip.
If you can obtain it over there (It is available in the US) try Liberon Finishing Oil it really is good stuff and IMHO it is superior to WATCO.For traditionalists you could try Mike Smart's Trade Secrets Rapid Oil available from Woodcock Hill.

Mike,
You mentioned you use a polyurethane finish in your post where you talk about your comp guns. Would that be the Waterlox Original Satin or the Waterlox Oil-Modified Urethane?