doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Proof House in USA??

What the Euro proof houses have going for them is history, they date back to muzzleloading cannon and matchlock days. They developed proof standards for every cartridge that's come down the pike for the past 150 years.

Here in America we have been enjoying the fruits of a free society where invention and innovation has spawned hundreds of firearm designs and thousands of cartridges. Who will decide what the proof load for a 38-55 Winchester will be? How will it be determined, do you blow up a bunch of Ballards and Winchesters?

Do we adopt out of hand, UK standards(Obama hates England)? What about all the wildcatters, do they become outlaws? Does the guy who AIs a 6.5x54MS have to have his rifle blown because the proof house has never seen one?

The rifle stuff is much more complicated and far reaching than the shotgun implications.

Jim

Lengthened chambers on American guns is a POTENTIAL problem? Wow . . . that's strange. Some guys must not get out a lot. I run into "potential problems" just about every time I visit a gun shop that has very many vintage American doubles on hand. And no need to create an agency. SAAMI already exists.

Here's what it comes down to, for me: I can pick up a Brit or European gun, and just by looking at the proofmarks, I know the original chamber length; I know whether the chambers have been lengthened; I know the original bore diameter (which, when I insert my bore and choke gauge, tells me whether someone's done a significant amount of honing); I may know the load for which the gun was built; and I may be able to tell when the gun was proofed. In contrast, I pick up a vintage American gun, and there's some chance--although less than 50%--that the manufacturer might have marked the original chamber length.

Here's a real world example: Several months back, I bought a Sauer 20ga, imported by Abercrombie and Fitch. My bore and choke gauge tells me that the gun is significantly overbored for a 20, which could mean a lot of honing was done . . . except, right there among the proofmarks, there's this little "19"--which means that the gun left the factory overbored. Eliminates my concern in that area. Same situation on an American double . . . first, I'd have to know what the standard bore diameter was, for that particular manufacturer and for that gauge. That might vary by at least .008 from one maker to another, according to one source I have. Then there's the possibility, somewhat remote but there nevertheless, that someone ordered the gun overbored.

What it comes down to is this: proof and proofmarks, European style, answer a lot of questions relatively quickly and easily that can't really be answered on vintage American guns, without a fair amount of research and some tools. Personally, I prefer having it all spelled out, right there on the barrel flats. But for some, I guess, having more information is a bad thing. Not sure why, but to each his own.

That's what I said, and that's what I meant. POTENTIAL problem. Has every American gun that has had it's chambers lengthened blown up? Of course not.

It has to all come back to personal responsibility. There are two ways, that have already been proposed here, of dealing with this. Either don't ever buy modified guns, as Doug said, or get the knowledge necessary to check wall thickness in the critical areas, and make an educated decision as to whether the gun is safe.

All this constant begging for someone to protect me from myself is absolutely sickening to me.

SRH

L.B., You never cease to amaze me......what world do you live in....?.....American guns you say...

1. Quality American guns can be lettered which will show the factory specs, barrel length and choking as delivered from the factory. LOP, DAH, DAC...etc.

2. Intelligent people will research specific brands and know the dimensions (and measure) that a specific company used to manufacture a specific gun during a specific time frame, i.e. chamber lengths by gauge etc. For American Manufactured guns.....

3. The Cody Firearms Museum will, for members, forward a "worksheet" prior to purchase with basic information on a specific gun by serial number....i.e., chokes, barrel lengths etc....
It is very easy to then apply this information to a potential purchase......

4. AGAIN....YOU CANNOT PROTECT ALL THE PEOPLE ALL THE TIME...."ANYWHERE".....even in a perfect world, Joe DA Hunta will still plug his bore with mud or use the wrong ammo and blow/bulge barrels.......BTW...this happens in proof house nations as well......the point being that more damage and injury takes place from "operator error" than from flawed guns...even with the butchered ones.......

What you are suggesting is controlling the sporting public through regulation so you can have a set of stamped numbers or re-stamped numbers on your guns.....and requiring us to follow suit.....

5. Years ago American manufacturers didn't even put the gauge on shotguns, they figured people were SMART enough to know what gauge of gun they were shooting.........

6. What you propose is a no-common sense approach to a problem that does not exist......

7. Intelligent people don't buy butchered guns, foreign or domestic.....with so many original, unaltered guns available, why buy the butchered ones....?.....

8. PEOPLE WHO require proof plus wanting a holy blessing so they can shoot modern Walmart ammo while having no mechanical apptitude themselves, should buy ONLY MODERN NEWLY MANUFACTURED guns and blast away.......

The wood on the old guns won't take the constant pounding of modern ammo and lengthened chambers anyway.....that's a fruitless misinformed adventure......

Just maybe, here's your reason. I thought this was a consumer protection issue. Is there any mandate that couldn't be justified because a few know what's best for all. As the pages go by, the percentage of rouge chambers is increasing. Careful, you may not have bought the only safe 20ga. in the country just because you memorized some book of proof marks.

What if you woke up tomorrow and decided to buy a Winchester M-12. Is it going to be the British proof marked permanently altered magazine gun or the inadequately marked American original. Same for the hundred year old Purdey, you gonna buy the one that bubba took a file to the proof marks or the correct and original one as intended by the maker.

If a proof system was established a hundred and fifty years ago many answers would be easier to come by, no doubt. I don't see how establishing one today, would make the gun traders life easier. After all, who would decide what the original barrel diameter was on a 1912 Crescent 16ga?

Our Constitution gave us the right to own guns and the balance of the the Bill of Rights was to guarantee our fight to be left alone. In Europe gun ownership is a privilege granted by the government, it's not hard to see how a proof house could be used to control and register our guns.

No tin foil hat here, just an American who sees more and more governmental infringement on our personal liberty as a bad thing.

Your Mileage Obviously Varies

I like the idea of a voluntary proof house that individuals could send a gun to for re-proof. IMHO the liability issue would however be tremendous! Once proof makes were on a gun someone would blow it up just so that they could sue the proof house.

"Our constitution gave us the right to own guns..."

"In Europe gun ownership is a privilege granted by the government..."

Nice theory. In practice, when visiting with my relatives in NYC I was told that handguns are out of reach of ordinary citizen. In my part of Europe, I own as many as I wish including license to carry.

With kind regards,
Jani

As to chambers, I will point out just three of the guns I own.
First is a ca 1893 12ga Lefever G grade damascus with 2 5\8" chambers. Normal for the era so undoubtably original. This gun weighs 8lbs even.
Next a high SN'd 12ga Lefever H grade twist, probbly assembled at Ithaca post 1915. This gun weighs 6 1/2 lbs yet has 2 3/4" chambers. 2 3/4" chambers are "Normal" on late model Lefevers so this one is most likely original as well.
Now the G has quite heavy bbls & the chamber could in fact be extended to 3" & still have thicker walls at the end than the H. I definitely would not recommend re-chambering this old gun to 3" & firiing magnum loads through it, "BUT" in this era Lefever as well as other makers would cut chambers to order. No doubt had that G been ordered with 3" chambers there would have been absolutely no difference made in its bbl configuration.
Last gun is a post 1907 16ga Lefever H grade twist. This gun came to me with 3" chambers, yes you read right, A 3" 16ga. Are these original, well who knows, but Why would it have been re-chambered to 3". At the time it was built 3" chambers could be had to order along with shells to fit. They "Never" became a standard so I highly suspect it was ordered new this way.
It is also noted that many early Lefevers, along with some other makes, came from the factory bored oersize for use with all brass shells.
Does anyone see the can of worms we would be opening up here. None of these early guns were factory marked with either chamber length or bore size.
"WHO" would determine which ones had been modified & needed to be proofed. Bottom line is to ensure all modified guns were proofed every gun sold would have to be subjected to the proof.
"IF" it were not "Mandatory" it would do nothing to protect the "Unknowledgable" Joe Blow on the street that it is suggested to protect, voluntarily wouldn't work. Even then it would still offer no protection to anyone dragging out an old ancestrial short chambered JABC etc & stuffing it with a high powered load.
Best thing to do with this subject is
"KILL IT"
before the wrong people read it & get ideas, "For Our Own Good".

NYC is not a typical American city. Although most do, in fact, poscribe carrying a handgun. In a fairly recent Supreme Court decision, the court decided you could OWN a handgun in your home.

In my part ot the US most people have and carry handguns, and many have Licenses to cary.