doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Spanish Doubles

I'm not a fan, but some seem pretty well made. Garbi, AYA and the old Arriettas come to mind, but to me the list pretty much stops there. But then I have not had the best of luck with them.

When did the Spanish guns get their bad reputation? I have seen literature from the 50s when the Spanish guns were well thought of. I believe some of the problems came during the embargo's of steel during the Franco reign. But I don't know the good years and the bad years of Spanish guns. I know they have gone though an up turn. I would appreciate any thought out help here. Thanks and please no praise for Ugartacheria I've had my fill of those.

There were some really cheesy Spanish handguns produced in the 1920-1940s. This was not just a Spanish phenomenon either, France, Italy and Germany all had what you could call "severe price point" handguns, but, folks seem to remember the Spanish guns.
I think some of the problems occur when a manufacturer tries to make the leap from small scale to large scale producer. Double shotguns don't lend themselves well to this leap, not as well as more modern designs, anyway, simply for the amount of hand work that has to go into them. Couple this with the price point being dictated to same manufacturer by a distant importer, and it has the possibility of being a receipe for disaster. We live in times where it is expected to take X amount of time to fit an action, and someone is constantly harping on that guy fitting the action to get it done, a little sooner.
Cole Haugh told me he had decided, based on his experience working on Spanish doubles, that when a gun comes in, no matter the problem, the bits get re-hardened. He might be onto something. I hope that for the effort he puts into doing that, the outcome is much improved and he sees fewer guns a second or third time.
I've heard of problems with all three of the manufacturers you listed as "pretty good". I also witnessed the uncasing of a brand new William Powell boxlock, circa mid 1980s, that had so many problems develop that the owner simply gave up on it, three seasons into ownership. It was traded for an old English gun. The gun cost most of what I made in a year, back then. It looked good, coming out of the box. Note that this was before Powell's had Spanish guns for sale.
I think it will be tough to nail down years that are good or bad. I also don't believe that a single improperly hardened sear, in a random double, should condemn a whole countries output of double shotguns, either, as some seem to believe.

Best,
Ted

Same way with those Moss'eburg pumps eh...

Hi pooch, boy a very complex question in a lot of ways. The era of the cheap Spanish guns and the "Soft" steel legend really came into being in the late 50's thru the late 60's early 70's. The guns made by Victor Sarasqueta and imported by Stoeger were good quality guns. Stoeger did not import junk from Spain. They did request features from VS for what Americans thought a double should be (BTFE, PG,ST, vent rib etc). Once the Stoeger imports became somewhat successful, other importers jumped on the band wagon. The guns that they imported were by and large cheap "Price Point" guns (every gun is a price point gun, but the term has come to mean cheap & low quality). The importer would seek out a maker, who would be willing to make whatever gun and specs the importer wanted for a set price. The importer needs to make a profit, so they would request this, that and the other thing and only pay the maker X amount. The maker would complete the gun and would pretty it up on the outside, but in order for the maker to get a profit had to cut somewhere. Mostly on the inside of the action, where parts were not hardened properly, lower quality materials, bbl regulation was hit or miss and not a lot of time was spent on them to ensurea good gun. The guns of course showed this over use and thus we have the cheap throw away after one season gun. Spanish steel is some of the best in the world, even during the embargo, their steel was good quality, a lot of the meterials came from Sweden and other parts of the europe for this steel. The problem came in with the hardening and quality of steel used on price point guns. Like anything else, steel can be good or bad all depends on what you want the how much you want to pay. So the myth and legend of all Spanish steel being cheap came into being. The 80's saw DIARM come into being, this was the death of most of Spains smaller makers, it did in one sense usher in a new era of Spanish gunmaking. The firms that survived it (AyA being one) and those who did not join now started to get their Sh** together and started to make higher quality well regarded guns. There is a lot more to this story and I past over a few areas, but this is just a down and dirty answer. I'm sure others will chime in with some points I've missed or expand on what I've said, I'm looking forward to hearing them.

All the best!

Greg

Spanish makers got their bad reputation when they were building "price point" guns for American importers (I guess in the 50's,60's, and 70s). But even makers that were known for cheap guns were capable of building top notch pieces.... but most of those never left Spain.

They've always built quality stuff, as they do now. But it was the cheap imports that gave them a bad name.

Adam

Good post Ted, you bet me to it by a few minutes! EXCELLENT point about cheap/cheaper guns from other countries. Not many folks consider that aspect. Good call!

Greg

I remember reading this on the Spanish forum on Shotgunworld.com (posted by a member from Spain). He said something like "I am shocked you Americans like Spanish guns considering we sent you all of our crap!." This is indeed true... many of Spain's finest guns are still in Spain.

Adam

There is no difference in what country it was made, the importers are the ones to blame. They want a cheaper product to sell cheaper and still make money, and in so doing this the manufacturer has to cut steps to make this gun at importers price.

This is not only the Spanish guns but other European guns as well.

You get yourself a good one and you'll love it. I had a great sidelock built by AMR and it was not only beautiful but it was one tough SOB!!!
Yet my Arrieta that I bought in Spain while in the Navy was prone to malfunction even though it was a double trigger. But, it was one beautiful shotgun.

Q: When did Spanish guns begin to get a bad reputation?

A: 1914

Q: Why?

A: Long story. The short version is this.

There is no Spanish gun industry, as we here in the States use the word 'industry'. Rather each gun maker is a small shop (generally fewer than ten employees), and produce fewer than 100 guns a month. All guns are handmade. There is little or no mechanization. Each maker buys the parts he needs to assemble a firearm from a network of artisans, each of which specializes in a specific part or small assembly.

The Great War broke out in 1914. France, Germany, England, and Russia expected a short, victorious war, and to be 'home before the leaves turn'. We now know just how wrong they were, but it came as a surprise to the warring parties. England, France, and Germany all turned to Spain as a source for sidearms. Small companies like Beistegui, Echave, and Unceta, all of which produced fewer than a hundred handguns a month, were called on to deliver five to ten thousand firearms a month.

It was a disaster. The producers of small parts, like hammers, who traditionally might turn out five hammers a day, were pressed to deliver fifty hammers a day. Old men, children, and widows who had never made a firearms part in their lives began making gun parts. They had no experience, just a sample to work from. Some had good materials and some didn't. Some knew what heat treatment was, and some didn't.

Lots and lots of handguns were delivered. All of them worked a few times. Some of them were quite well made. Most weren't. And that's where the legend of 'soft Spanish steel' comes from. It's also from whence we get the 'Ruby' pistol collecting specialty. 'Ruby' was a very common model name for pistols delivered to the warring parties, and they were notorious for mechanical problems. People who collect WWI Spanish handguns are frequently referred to as 'Ruby Collectors'.

This is the origin of the distaste for Spanish firearms generally.

The story on Spanish shotguns is similar. Some hardware chain in the US finds a small Spanish shotgun maker and orders fifty shotguns a month for six months. The Spanish gun maker was capable of making ten guns a month. See above.

With shotguns, there is an added wrinkle. Here in the US we are accustomed to shotguns designed to do everything, including upland bird, water fowl, turkey, deer, and bear. Spanish shotguns aren't built that way. Spanish shotguns are like golf clubs; each gun is made for a specific purpose. Light game guns (a 12 gauge at six and a half pounds) is intended for light use in upland bird hunting. It's made to be carried a lot, fired a little, and used with one to one and an eighth ounce lead shot charge at 1200 fps. Shoot that gun with one and a half ounces at 1500 fps loads, the gun doesn't last long, and the ignorant owner complains of 'bad Spanish guns'. Next time you go out for a round of golf, try teeing off with a putter. It's just amazing how poorly putters are made :-)

Kyrie: Your post makes a lot of sense. I imagine if you took an English Best gun that weighs 6 1/2 lbs and you shot 1500 fps boomers in it, it would fare no better than a Spanish counterpart. I don't have much experience with Spanish guns, but my buddy owns an Arrizabalaga 'Boss' 16 ga and is it ever a nice gun! Feels just as good as English to me. He also has an Arrieta tht is pretty nice too. My question to you is, which of the Spanish guns would you recommend and which ones would you avoid? Thanks, Buzz

"Carmalo, this boxlock will be round bodied, so we need it plenty wide, make it 43 millimeters wide."

"Ok, 43 millimeters, it's OK."

THe thing arrives, it is 38 mm across. Phone to Carmalo, "We said 43, and it is 38, did you send us the wrong part?"

"You mean you really want 43 millimeters? Thirty eight is not enough?"

"Yes, we really need 43"

"Oh, then send it back."

THis is the problem, not the hardening, not the steel quality, not the regulation. These guys do not communicate. Not communicating often goes with not innovating. Blindly copying two English prototypes suited them and they stopped there. The lack of curiosity, the absence of any drive to innovate, especially when compared to Italian gumakers, is amazing.

Every gunmaking area has its archetypical gun. London the sidelock, Birmingham the boxlock, Edinburgh the Round Action, Liege the B25, Saint Etienne the Darne and Ideal, Gardone the low profile Overunder, Ferlach the drilling. What is the Eibar archetype? See the problem now?

You'll hear quite a few stories about guys who order "bespoke" Spanish guns and don't get the dimensions, chokes, etc that they "bespoke". Maybe that's the communication problem mentioned above. That being said, there are a lot of happy customers of AyA, Arrieta, Garbi, Grulla etc, and moving down a notch (in price) Ugartechea. Seeing that the Brits produce only a small fraction of the guns they used to, and seeing that new Brit guns are out of the price range of most buyers, the Spanish fill a niche in the market. How well do they fill that niche? Well, they do sell quite a few guns in this country. And in Great Britain.

Every succesful business must fill a niche of sorts to survive, and I am happy that they do. I like Spain and the people and wish them the best. But I would so like to see something unique from Eibar. A gun that states its origin with pride. Aside from some spring changes to the sidelock and some angle alterations to the boxlock, there is not much else. Sure, everyone uses existing ideas to build on, ie the Boss system in OUs. But the Perazzi and the Boss are as different as chalk and cheese despite the common foundation. The Perazzi screams "Italy" and it is not the only one.

Some early, cheap inboard hammer folder might be truly representative of Eibar. They are ingenuously simple actions. One wonders how some refinement might have affected the simplicity. There would have been a niche market for that too.

I agree that the source of the poor Spanish reputation is rooted in their exports to the US from WWI through the 1970's that were made for the low end of the Market.

I believe that Spanish, Italian, and Belgian guns all have been sources of the cheapest imports to the US. In some respects Turkey and Brazil now occupy this niche in the market. As others have stated being the cheapest brings with the aura that everything from that country is cheaply made.

All the countries I have listed are capable of producing best quality. Though I admit I have not seen it from Brazil but I have little doubt it is out there.

I was over in Spain a year ago visiting gun and ammo makers. My impression was that gun sales volume has fallen quite a bit since 2008. The major shotgun makers are now concentrating a bit more on their higher end offerings where they have more margin.

The big question is the Euro situation. Within my personal memory, the cost of an AyA 53 boxlock has increased six fold. Some of that is due to inflation, some to reaching more up-market and some to the adoption of the Euro.

It will be very interesting to see what happens if Spain drops out of the Euro zone and readopts the peseta at a 50% haircut (the only way they can manage their national debt).

There really isn't an answer to that question. Spanish gun makers make guns that generally fall in a range that runs from light game guns ('carried much, shot little'), through medium game guns (driven game; 'carried little, shot much'), to competition guns (think live pigeon; made to be shot a hundred thousand plus times a year).

The first thing to do when considering a Spanish shotgun is to decide, on that continuum, what kind of gun you want. Next step is to learn the physical and mechanical characteristics of the gun you want so you can recognize your gun when you see it.

Next step is to decide on the level of ornamentation you want. The limit here is your imagination and your wallet.

The maker is largely irrelevant, as they all make the same range of guns. It may be easier to get a specific type of gun from one maker rather than another, because makers do tend to lean toward specific places in the continuum. Purely as examples, Arrieta tends to lean toward light game guns. Grulla tends to lean toward medium game guns. AyA also tends toward light game guns, but catalogs an excellent competition gun (the Mdl 56). But any maker will make a gun to any point on the continuum.

Another approach is to buy a used gun, especially in Spain right now. There are some fabulous deals to be had, given the economic situation in Spain.

But here are some examples of light, medium, and competition guns.

Light game gun by Ascensio Zabala (6.25 pounds, 12 gauge):


Ornamentation is about midrange:


Medium game gun by Martin Ugarteburu (seven and a half pound 12 gauge gun):


Ornamentation is above average, approaching top end:


Live pigeon gun by Victor Sarasqueta (eight plus pound 16 gauge):

Very plain gun:


I bought both the Zabala and the Sarasqueta here in the US, at auction, for under $300 and just under $600, respectively. I bought the Ugarteburu in Spain, for 900 Euro.

When thinking of buying a Spanish shotgun, think like you were buying a golf club. Buy the club that will best do the specific job you have in mind.

Hope this helps some.

Buzz, like the old saying goes, "Buy the gun, not the name." This is especially true with Spanish guns. Many of the top Spanish makers like AYA, Garbi, and even Arrizabalaga have built guns in the past that I would avoid. But they have all dropped their low end guns and are increasingly focusing on the higher end market.

If I were to buy a NEW gun today, I would be comfortable buying from any of the Spanish makers... AYA, Arrieta, Arrizabalaga, Grulla, Garbi, and, yes, even Ugartechea. They are all perfectly capable of producing fine doubles that can compete with the best.


On the used gun market, just use your judgement. You'll know which ones are quality pieces and which to avoid.

Adam

Some of Spain's more recent productions....

AYA #1 Deluxe 20-bore


Arrieta 803 .410-bore




AYA Imperial 12-bore


AYA Suprema


AYA Adarra


Arrizabalaga "Boss"


Arrizabalaga "Especial"


Arrieta Custom


Ugartechea 1030

Wow.
An just think of the pride someone will feel when they sez to admirers, "This ain't no cheesy Boss, it's a Arrizabalaga!"

Precisely

There are folks who have no interest in guns made anywhere in Great Britain. I happen to be one of them, so I have no interest in a Boss gun. Don't get me wrong. If someone wanted to give me a Boss I'd take it. And immediately sell it so I could buy a gun that interests me. Not a Pedro Arrizabalaga. Probably a Lazaro Arrizabalaga. I've been eyeing a very nice, cased, two barrel Chacho Arrizabalaga made in 1952...

Please note I'm not disparaging Boss, or any of the English or Scottish made guns. Nor am I disparaging the folks who like and buy British guns. To each his own.

Kyrie, I don't think any reasonably tuned-up person disparages reputable guns wherever they're made. We're bundles of emotions, biases, preferences, rightly or wrongly or otherwise.

I'd buy any gun if it met my criteria of plainness, not a lot of gew-gaws, utility as a shooter, cost as no more than my others, because any time money and ego enters it's time to look at me.

Nothing is ever as simple as that, of course. We're also bundles of ambiguities. There are things we don't buy and places unvisited because we disagree with a particular country's politics. And that changes as they change.

There also many excellent Spanish SxS's. My 12 ga. Arrieta was made in the early 1980's, and I am very pleased with it in all regards.

One of my hunting parners visited Spain the late 1990's and was fitted for a new Grulla at the factory. It has proven to be a very fine purchase, and has served him well.

Jerry

There might be another thing to consider. If 40-60 years ago there were a number of crappy Spanish guns imported the likelihood is that they're long since worn out/broken. The "soft steel" poorly-regulated, bad-springs guns would have long since vanished from the active shooting scene. What's left is good.

I have bought a number of sidelocks from the 70s and 80s and they are well-used and quite robust. They handle a lot better than American guns and I like them a lot. They needed cosmetic work on the stocks/forends but that was it.

A few years ago a lot of these guns were appearing in the US market - they seem to have dried up.

Gnomon,
The Turkish guns have taken a nice bite out of the market once filled with Spanairds!!

Yes,they have! But not 30-yr-old Turkish guns!

I have been much happier with other European Guns - France and Germany come to mind.

Agree 100% with the sentiment, buy the gun not the name. There are some great non british guns out there that do not demand the same price for close to or in some cases better quality.

Many of these guns will serve any user well for a lifetime of use.

However one thing must be understood, investment grade guns that appreciate better than others are high grade British and American guns.

While I take great pleasure in the quality of an off brand high grade Belgian gun the reality is any resale is a challenge. That is a problem for my heirs (damm them if they don't hunt with them as I have)

That said I buy guns to use not resell and would recommend a quality Spanish gun to anyone who like me wants to shoot the thing and not stare at it on the wall.

I may have posted this before but if so I apologise. I own a couple of newish Hollands (not sure for how much longer looking at the way this year has been) but early last year took delivery of an AYA No.1 deluxe in 20 bore. I was in one of the big London gunmakers showrooms to buy some cartridges and to take it to the shooting school for a few lessons. As the head of the gun room said "Buggered if I know how they do it, 90% of the quality of a London best at 25% of the price, if you hid the names most people would never know". The gun is lovely but I would never put some of the loads you chaps over the pond use in your guns, best, Mike

Nope! I still have my first SxS . A 20 gauge loyola that I bought in 1970 at 14 years old . I must admit though that it hasn't seen extensive use for the last number of years. Although not the greatest of quality, it is a nice handling little gun.

Thought yall might like to see this one. One of about 40 made. It's an AYA Senior... patterned after the Beesley/Purdey self-opening action.

At the time this was produced, they cost about 7 times more than a standard #1. AYA recently had a trio listed on their site (used of course) for over $100K.

Do look for older Ugartechea self-opener with Bohler Bros. oxidation-resistat steel barrels. In USA you might come across one in couple of lifetimes. Now the good news>>>> it will cost fraction of that AyA.

Adam Stunson, that price was whacky, my friend has a pair and as he freely admits the ejectors get very tired after a big drive. He sticks to his number 1�s, best, Mike

Mike I think that's why they stopped building them. The H&H was easier and less costly!

Here some pics of the inside.

I love mine. The big draw for a spanish gun is that you can get them custom made. I prefer some rather long dimensions.

And you are soooo right.

Those off-the-shelf English guns just never seem to work out do they?

Those of privilege will never except one of those especially at that price range. The ancestors in North of England and elsewhere would SPIN in their graves.

To Anglophile Spanish 'Best' is defined as rainy day substitute for: Purdey, H&H, Boss,.....

Although William Powell, Churchill and others are selling Spanish guns under their badges after some additional finishing. Clearly those makers are satisfied with the overall quality of those guns. How do deceased Anglophilic ancestors respond to a Spanish sxs bearing a Churchill banner?