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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,568 Likes: 100
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,568 Likes: 100 |
I shot a nice light A&F Francotte this morning. 20 gauge, 26", 2 3/4" chambers, SFE, POW stock, DT, wormholed buttplate. Engraved sideplates, sound wood, overall 90%+. What the heck is it. - Year of manufacture? - Grade / Model? - Chokes? - Value?
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,050
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,050 |
Good Shooting T.C. The Green Isle
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,272 Likes: 203
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,272 Likes: 203 |
Looks like a Grade 25 Ejector.
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 5
Boxlock
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Boxlock
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 5 |
Well the best I could tell from the pictures is it looks to be Belgian post 1952. Both controllers listed on this gun held proofs in 1952. There looks to be a really faint date code on the gun. If it is the correct one it would make it a 1953 piece. Which would fall into the timeline of hoth the below listed controllers. Controller of Proof - Daenen Charles 1952-1968 Controller of Proof - Laenen Clement 1952-1986 Best I could do with the pictures of the gun. Try to find pictures of what other guns similar to yours are selling for to get a value, if you can find any.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 173 Likes: 8
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 173 Likes: 8 |
Bob, The Francotte was built in 1961 since it has the Greek letter Phi as the date code there among the proof marks. It was received in inventory at Abercrombie & fitch in NYC on October 20, 1961. The model is a Grade No. 20E according to the A&F record book. The listed specifications seem to match those that you have described. The shotgun was sold at A&F for $675 later that same month. Compliments of Griffin & Howe, Inc. http://www.griffinhowe.com/research-main.cfm
Bob Beach
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,568 Likes: 100 |
Thanks, you guys are great. With the exception of a worm holed buttplate the gun seems a solid 90%. On consignment at my club and thought to be a Knockabout. Choke markings? How about all the barrel markings? Seems to carry a substantial premium for being a subgauge. Care to venture a guess as to value? Thanks again, Bob
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,380 Likes: 105
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,380 Likes: 105 |
Wouldn't have needed Bob Beach's precise info to know it's not a Knockabout. They weren't sideplated.
Current Blue Book says $3400 for a 90% 20E. Then add 100-150% premium for 20ga. From Francottes I've seen listed, that seems some steep, but not a lot. In the condition you describe, I think it'd be a buy at $5,000.
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Joined: Feb 2009
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,568 Likes: 100 |
How about chokes??
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Bob; 1mm =.039. The difference between 15.9 & 15.8 is 0.1mm or .0039 roghly 4 thosandths of an inch or an I/C choke. I don't off hand recall for certain that is the proper interpretation of those two marks for this time frame. At some point in time it seeems as if the Belgians stamped the bore dia when it came in for proisional proof & then re-stamped it at final proof. Finishing up & polishing the bores could account for this .1mm difference. Choke then would simply mean it is not a cyl bore but has some unstated amount of choke.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
The barrels weighed 1.083kgs or 2.38lbs at time of proof.
It passed Superior Proof 20,000 psi for gauges under 16ga.
As of 1924, the diameter of the choked portion is no longer indicated by the proof house.
Siemens Martin barrels replaced Cockerill in about 1900 until about 1911. These dates are very rough. It was a period known as "the German School".
Pete
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,136 Likes: 199
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,136 Likes: 199 |
I was probably in A&F when that gun was on the shelf. At that time, a Knockabout 20 sold for $425, an astronomical price for such a gun. They were not flying off the shelves. There were rows of Knockabouts on the rack from 12 to .410. A sideplated boxlock at $675 was a bit steep also.
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Joined: Feb 2009
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,568 Likes: 100 |
Thanks again to all. Bob; 1mm =.039. The difference between 15.9 & 15.8 is 0.1mm or .0039 roghly 4 thosandths of an inch or an I/C choke. I don't off hand recall for certain that is the proper interpretation of those two marks for this time frame. At some point in time it seeems as if the Belgians stamped the bore dia when it came in for proisional proof & then re-stamped it at final proof. Finishing up & polishing the bores could account for this .1mm difference. Choke then would simply mean it is not a cyl bore but has some unstated amount of choke. How about the *S?
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,380 Likes: 105
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,380 Likes: 105 |
I was probably in A&F when that gun was on the shelf. At that time, a Knockabout 20 sold for $425, an astronomical price for such a gun. They were not flying off the shelves. There were rows of Knockabouts on the rack from 12 to .410. A sideplated boxlock at $675 was a bit steep also. My 1936 A&F catalog shows a Knockabout with ejectors at $175, a 20E at $275. They were never cheap guns, for sure. When you consider that A&F offered the Parker DHE at $186.50 in the same catalog, the Fox CE at $117, the Elsie Specialty at $118.50, and the Ithaca NID 4E at $130, it gives you an interesting basis for comparison.
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,568 Likes: 100
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,568 Likes: 100 |
So how about those chokes? What's the conventional wisdom on choke designations, markings, etc? Thank you.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,136 Likes: 199
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,136 Likes: 199 |
"CHOKE" means there is choke in the barrel. The lack of that mark means there is no choke in that barrel. My 28 gauge is cylinder and improved cylinder by micrometer. It has one barrel marked "CHOKE"
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 416
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 416 |
The only way to truly know what you've got choke wise is to have each barrel measured w/ a micrometer, as the results may, or may not, match what (if anything) is stamped on the bbls/gun...
Always looking for small bore Francotte SxS shotguns.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,380 Likes: 105
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,380 Likes: 105 |
"CHOKE" means there is choke in the barrel. The lack of that mark means there is no choke in that barrel. My 28 gauge is cylinder and improved cylinder by micrometer. It has one barrel marked "CHOKE" That appears to be the case under Belgian proof rules. Under British proof rules, the lack of the "choke" stamp doesn't necessarily mean cylinder bore, but it does mean not much choke. There might be as much as .007 constriction in a British barrel without the "choke" stamp.
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