doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com quality of AYA, Arrieta and Grulla

In a few of my recent posts, a couple of responses said not to buy Spanish SxS's made in the past few years. Is there a quality issue with AYA, Arrieta or Grulla? I have recently purchased a 20 ga AYA 453 and a Grulla 16 ga 216rl. I am currently looking at a couple of new 28 ga Arrietas's to buy ... should I re-think this decision?

Yes you should rethink buying anymore, if you will just send me the money (money order ok) I will look around for you and see if I can help.

I have three that were custom made for me. They are great. What can compare at that price?

Hmmmm... lets see:

A Savage/Fox BST?
A Hopkins & Allen single barrel?
A Winchester Model 24?

The mind reels with possibilities...

He meant "tailor made" shotgun for the money not something off used gun rack made to fit nobody particular.

You're buying high quality pieces.... Anybody that tells you otherwise is a doing so because they're "gun snobs"..... Well if it means anything, the AYA #2 is the best-selling SXS in England. And more and more English makers (like E.J. Churchill, William Powell, J. Rigby, etc) are turning to the likes of AYA, Arrieta, and Arrizabalaga to build doubles for their clients. I think that speaks volumes about the quality of the guns coming out of Spain today.

Hi Adam is pretty much correct. I've owned or have owned guns by the makers you listed. All are good makers. The guns they produce today are IMO very well made. I would have to give Grulla the edge in the fit and fitting department. They are not producing the numbers of guns that AyA or Arrieta are. They are now more of a custom gunshop. Yes they do produce guns for the open market, just not as many as the other makers you listed. They also have cut back on the number of models they produce, thus a little more care into what they make.

Arrieta is a fine maker with a wonderful reputation. The guns they produce are also considered some of the best made in Spain. They do produce for other markets on a much broader scale, that does say something about the quality guns they produce.

AyA, what can one say. The main stay of Spanish guns in the world. Their guns are all over the place. But they do have their ups and downs with quality over the years.

As the saying goes buy the gun. But to be honest, the name also means something. If folks are honest with themselves, they'll take an AyA over a Zabala any day, just the reputation that the maker has does come into play.

I wouldn't worry to much about the quality issue with modern Spanish guns, your going to get a bad one here and there with some problem or the other, but overall in the general big picture, you should be just fine.

Best of luck to you!

Greg

Quality in Spanish guns remains questionable to this day. They are an OK value if you do not mind having issues straightened out after you buy it. I just had in a brand new Arrietta 570. Not a bad gun but it had a few issues. Terrible checkering, huge(big enough to slip a dime into) inletting gaps in the forend, an ejector that worked as an extractor, sears that bound against the opposing sides lock giving a crunchy 9.5lb trigger pull. I do agree with Greg that Grulla seems to be the best of the lot. In my opinion a well cared for German or English gun can be had for less money and you end up with more gun.

Good Spanish gun can be had for very little money. A sample is 3" 20ga Aguirre and Aranzabal SLE with 28" barrels. It's little "Trap Gun" with sparingly engraved but lovingly polished action in "Funeral Gun" style, slim btfe, pgs, sst, and VR barrel with weight of about 7lb. The asking price is $1100. It has seen enough field use so I know it works and lead ammo for it can be bought at local Walmart.
The Made in London version would be about 4x better and cost 30x more.
Yeh, one can buy ugly German BLNE for price of that Spanish AyA.

I guess value is in the eye of the beholder. I see bunches of good blne brit guns priced at sub 2,500$. Daryl H had a lovely Brit SLE posted for sale here at below 5K. To me, both are better options and will be fit and finished to a much higher standard. German guns do often lack aesthetically, but that is a matter of taste not quality of the build. I have had LOTS of Spanish guns apart and I remain unimpressed.

Steve, can you share anymore of your negative experiences? Unless the gun has hand detachable locks, I never see inside my guns so I am always lookin to learn about Spanish guns.

I've owed doubles from all the big Spanish makers (except Arrizabalga) and have never had any reliability issues. But I will agree that Spanish guns aren't the most consistent.

Thanks
Adam

Sure Adam:

A bunch of soft sears, hammers, and firing pins over the years. Recently I had a buggered screw(another smith buggered it) come in on a trigger plate on an AYA, then I figured out why the other guy buggered it.....the slot had only been cut part way across the screw at the factory, yet it had been engraved and hardened. Makes you wonder? No one saw that? Oh and then there was the 2 barrel set SLE another AYA I believe, with the loose hinge pin.It would literally turn in its hole as the barrels rotated. I have seen some decent ones but gee whiz....that is just basic quality control stuff.

The most quality for the dollar are the Birmingham boxlocks made between WWI and WWII in my opinion. Also the German boxlocks made in the same period.

I second that motion.

I was completely satisfied with the only Spanish gun I ever actually bought and shot. It was an Uggie entry grade (model 75EX) sidelock with a single trigger.

So, I'm no expert on Spanish guns, but my thought is that the biggest drawback for them is the steep drop in value from new purchase price to 2nd hand sales price. Conversely, that would be their greatest advantage for those of us wanting a very good gun at a manageable price point.

Of course, in the used gun market the buyer must wait until the right gun comes along at the right price. If I find an AYA model 2 with the right dimensions, configuration, and price, that may well be my next purchase...Geo

Do you want to know the answer to your question or do you just need to be reinforced in your decision? The answer will come from a gunsmith. Reinforcemnt will come from a salesman.
I had a good one and will swear by them but I ain't no gunsmith either.

I have owned quite a number of Spanish SxSs and do almost all my own work on guns. I have torn apart Arrietas, AyAs, Grullas, Ugartecheas, Urbiolas, Arizagas, Sarasquetas, Aramberris, Union Armeras, Laronas, and Zabalas. As as result, I feel safe saying that I have had a taste of the good, the bad, and the ugly of Spanish guns.

While I believe Steve is being completely sincere in his description of the problems he has encountered on Spanish guns (especially since I have seen the same), I do not however think that his experiences are representative of an entire industry or all the guns produced by an individual maker. The very nature of his job as a gunsmith (i.e. he repairs broken guns) means that in his shop he is mostly going to see guns that have problems and not all those perfectly serviceable guns that are shot year after year without a hitch.

Case in point, a good friend of mine is a professionally trained local "general" gunsmith who has been working on all kinds of guns for over 40 years. When I ask him what is his "dog" of "dogs" shotgun is, he consistently replies "the Benelli SBE." He says he repairs more of those guns than any other and that in his words they are "pieces of junk." He absolutely hates them.

Like Steve's opinion of Spanish guns, I understand where he is coming from. A good friend of mine bought an SBE that would not cycle any kind of shell right out of the box. After several trips back to the store where he bought it and several inspections by a local smith, it was sent back to Benelli and came back still not working correctly. I replaced the aluminum tube that houses the main inertia spring with an aftermarket stainless steel tube and that seemed to help some, but the gun still did not always cycle shells correctly --regardless of the kind of shell.

BUT, on the other hand I know many other guys who have bought Benelli SBEs and hunt with them year after year without a hitch --heck, a few of my friends don't even ever clean them! There is a reason it is so popular and perhaps the most widely used autoloading duck gun.

I suspect Steve's experience with Spanish gun might be somewhat similar. Sure there are guns out there with problems and the Basques don't always finish the internals as nicely as they should. Yet Spanish guns have become quite popular for a reason and the quality is such that major retailers such as Cabelas continue to sell them.

Finally, in my opinion, the overall quality of Spanish guns has dramatically improved since the mid to late 90s, but so has the price. Prior to that, there were some great guns built by the Spanish but unfortunately they were also out numbered by a lot of junk. I also agree that the recent Grullas I have seen and currently own are mechanically finished better than the Arrietas of more or less the same grade that I own.

My Grulla 216RL:

My several cents on the topic - I've owned 3 Uggies( 2 BLE - one an AOC 20, and a Grd.III Lion Country 28; and a Grd.V SLE Lion Country 12(still have), 2 AyA's - one 20 and one 12, and one Arrieta 557 12. I purchased the AyA 20 - a No. 2 SLE - in 1992 from Armes de Chasse as a custom order with stock dimensions, weight, choke and 29" barrels. It was one of the finest shotguns I've ever owned and the workmanship both inside and out was superb. I shot the devil out of it and sold it only because interests changed. The next AyA was also a No. 2 that came out of the UK. It was a 12 with 28" barrels and superb wood, plus a leather covered pad. According to the date code it was made in 1996. Its interior was as well finished as any I've ever seen and it too was shot a lot and worked flawlessly - an uncle has it now and uses it for everything including waterfowl(sigh). Never a problem to date.

The first Uggie was the AOC with 29" barrels - very nice gun for a BLE. Wood was good, fit alright but chokes were tighter than advertised - no problem and opened up easily. I purchased the gun in 2002/03 and used it almost exclusively for 4 seasons of everything except ducks. Never an issue and 'the kid' has it now. Next was the Grd. III in 28 (purchased 2 years ago) - nice wood and for the money I thought a good gun. I was shooting with a group that used nothing but 28's for nearly everything except waterfowl and that gun probably had 5000 rds. put through it quickly including more 1 oz. 28's than I should admit too! and never a problem. Friends wife had to have it - and she shoots it to the exclusion of anything else and no issues. Last and currently owned Uggie is the Grd. V purchased last year. I was advised against buying the gun because 'those in the know' said the Uggie was the 'poorest' of the Spanish SLE guns - poorest being fit, finish, and the sidelocks used coil rather than leaf mainsprings. To date, and about 2000 rds. later - I keep 'book' on all my guns - this 'poor' gun has performed flawlessly and comparison examination to a current comparable Arrieta and AyA show the Uggie to be much better finished than either of those guns. My wood was well finished with few pores, and good checkering. Grain was very nice. The watertable was mirror bright, disc set strikers well fit, and the ejectors perfectly timed and strong. The locks were well polished - yup there were some marks evident but not many and surprise, they had leaf mainsprings! My gun was made in 2007 and at nearly $2K less than the other makes, it so far has been well worth what I paid for it.

The Arrieta was their base sidelock, the 557. Mine was a 12 with 29" barrels and was made in 2009. Sold to me as a new gun, it wasn't and while the price was 'reasonable'at purchase, it soon became unreasonable as problems developed. The first issue was the fit internally - or should I say lack of. The end of the Purdey bolt looked like it had been final fit by whacking with a ball peen hammer - large peen of metal apparent. Inletting might have been done with a Dremel, but I don't want to disparage a great tool like the Dremel! After about 200 rds. both trigger pulls went to the 1 lbs. range automatically!!!!! The repairing gunsmith said both sear and notches had been incorrectly fit to begin with and was surprised they lasted as long as they did. The trigger guard tang interior surface where it is inletted to the stock was left in the white with file marks. The steel cap that surrounded the Anson push button was bent and poorly inletted. I raised all these issues with the dealer, who contacted Arrieta to no avail. I paid for correction of all these problems, and sold the gun for under $1000, informing the buyer of everything that had been fixed. The gun today is working perfectly.

The point of the above is that in MY opinion, as a whole, I think the 'Spanish gun' represents a great value for the $$ BUT caution should always be exercised, as it is with any gun purchase. I think the current guns are not as well finished as those of even 5 years ago, and ensure that the selling dealer is prepared to back their guns with a repair warranty through a COMPETENT gunsmith. Note the word competent!

One respondent above mentioned the popularity of the AyA in the UK - I can tell you that the AyA of the UK is NOT the AyA you see in the U.S. Many of the Brit guns come partially finished, depending on order, and are 'gone over' by Brit gunsmiths - from internal finishing, to bluing, engraving and even stocking on some of the AyA's brought in in the white. The British dealers in the Spanish guns seem to hold the makers to a higher standard than our dealers do.

I'm sure that my closing comment will incite some - if the gun buying decision comes to either a good condition British gun, either BLNE, BLE, SLNE or SLE vs. a Spaniard, look long and hard at the English cousin.

Hmmm... Ever wonder why Holland & Holland or Purdey doesn't have warranty repair stations?

Then again, that's just being a gun snob...

The few people that can afford to order Purdeys and Hollands can afford to send them back to the factory for repairs...


David, that's a beautiful Grulla!

I agree Adam. That is a beautiful shotgun.

That is because they want all service work done at the factory. You can find Purdeys and H&Hs made back in the 70s and 80s that aren't up to snuff, and there is a another current thread discussing problems with A&S Famars, which cost more than most Spanish guns.

If you take apart an Arrieta 801/802/803 or an AyA Model 1, those guns are well finished, and at $10-15K for a completely bespoke sidelock, you will be very hard-pressed to match that quality anywhere close to that price. Arrieta apparently does not make much money on their 500 series guns and may drop them and limit their production to higher end guns like Grulla and Arrizabalaga have done.

No one here has mentioned Garbi. I have 3 Garbis and all are wonderful, beautifully made sidelocks. I had a 28 ga. AYA 4/53 "Cabela's Classic" and it had LOTS of quality issues.

I agree about Garbi.... they are fine pieces and don't get the attention they deserve.

Many English companies work with Spanish makers to tailor guns for the English market. William Powell and Churchill, for example, both work with Arrieta. However, these gun are completely built in Spain. They are simply made to specs layed out by the Brits. I doubt seriously British gunsmiths go over every gun imported to England. I could be wrong though. I would be very impressed if it were true.

One exception is the AYA #1 DELUXE. The ones that goes to England are finished in England.... blacking, engraving (by Geoff Moore), color case (by St. Ledger), and stock finishing. The ones that comes to U.S. are finished in Spain. But as far as I know, this is the only exception in the AYA line. The other models should be the same, no matter what country they're bound for. But if you know something I don't, please share. Not trying to be a smart-a$$, just want learn the truth.

Thanks

Adam

Would not trade my AyA #2 20 gauge for anything.

Just saying.

I had a Grulla 216RL that had one barrel shoot 8" low at 16 yards. Grulla said this was in "spec". GSI/Merkel knew this was crap and replaced it for me at great cost. Grulla quality is spotty, and they do not stand behind their product. IMHO.

Adam: In the 90's most if not all of the AyA's coming into the UK were 'inspected' by the importers gunsmiths. I had this confirmed by two major dealers of the guns at the time. That may very well have changed and if I made the statement based on historic information and am wrong, I apologize. Speaking with William Powell about their imported but Powell badged Arrieta's, they told me that each gun is inspected by them before sale, and in many cases they apply extra finish to the wood.

Visiting the UK last summer and a few gunshops and shooting grounds, my observations of their Spanish guns for sale reinforces my belief that the guns going to the UK from Spain are 'better' in a number of areas than those coming to the U.S.

I cannot comment on Garbi or Grulla - the one Grulla I handled externally was beautiful in all respects.

Thanks Larry. I wonder if the English-badged Spaniards (from the likes of E.J. Churchill or William Powell) are avaiable state-side. I wish I could inspect some in person.

Thank you again.

Adam

They look so darn good but so often are like a song that's a half note off.

Looking at a top of the line Grulla today. $20000 best sidelock without a third fastener, not terrible but why. The barrels didn't look right, not sure why, manufacture, over stress? Why should a Best Gun barrel not look right? I'm willing to overlook a minor imperfection in $800 gun but not in a $20000 gun.

Hard to sing their praise when they are a half note off.