doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Looking at another 16g hammer gun and need opinion

On my ever ending search for a 16 gauge hammer gun, I found this one on gun broker:
Gunbroker 16 gauge

What do you guys think of this gun? It has 2 1/2" chambers. Is it generally safe to rechamber to 2 3/4" chambers on a steel barreled gun like this? The gun looks pretty nice, but I have know idea if it's worth getting. It also looks to be a 16 gauge frame, but I'm not sure.

I've got some pics of the underside of the barrel and receiver, but I'm not sure how to put them on here. The barrel says, acier decarbjre. Each barrel says St. Etienne and have 17.0 on both. 6.5 is on both flats and a crown with PM under it. It also say St. Etienne again and something else I can't make out. The reciever just has the crown and PM with the serial number.

Thanks for any help on this.

Why bother reaming this gun from 2 1/2 to 2 3/4" when you do not have to do it? Easy to find 2 1/2" shells these days and the real problem is pressure not how long the empty is. Join the 16GA. loading list on the 16Ga. web site and reload your own. Factory loads would be a bit too high pressure for this gun.

Concur with KY Jon - this gun appears too nice to monkey around with lengthening the chambers and 2 1/2 inch shells are readily available (or makeable, if you reload). French hammerguns are pretty thin on the ground and this one looks exquisite. The big question, though, is: What do the inside of the bores look like. My experience is that they come pitted a lot of the time and you have to be darned careful about that. There's not a lot of meat in these barrels and pitting (or reaming out chambers) can get a bit dubious.

The marks you write about:

"acier decarbure" - decarboned steel
"17.0" - the bore diameter in millimeters, which translates to a 16 gauge
"6.5" - the chamber length in centimeters, which translates to 2 1/2 inches
"St. Etienne" - the proofhouse in St. Etienne, France, where the gun went through proof testing.
the wreaths - the number of wreaths indicates the intensity of the proof testing.
the crown with PW - an initial proof
"Eprouve Poudre Pyroxlee" - proofed with smokeless (nitro) powder

Fourteenth picture shows what looks to me like a pretty bad looking dent in the right barrel just behind the sling swivel..Geo

Overhead view of the breech showing both hammers down,,the left one doesn't hit it's firing pin squarely.

I'm not a big on baseing everything on the lever position (this one is right at 6),,but the visable end of the cross bolt on the left side is buried into the receiver fence. Ususally they're out a few .000" or in the least flush with the fence when all is well.

Every Screw is buggered.

The frame, trigger guard, locks, ect all appear to have been buffed/shined up a bit before setting it out on the lot for sale.

Nice wood grain. I'd guess the wood has been gone over too from the looks of the edges of the inletting around the metal in places, the fit of the butt plate, the ultra high gloss and yet the wear to the checkering and wear and rounded edges of the wood around the locks that are underneath the finish.

Rear swivel missing.

No look at the insides of anything (TD) in all the pics.

Just some observations...

I think that if you do buy it, it will need some rehab. Don't even think about reaming that gun out to 2 3/4" and shooting modern high pressure cartridges in it.....that would be a sin!

Like many no name French guns, this one has seen better days. There are alot of dings on the stock and barrels. Some fool removed the rear sling swivel and replaced it with a screw. From the shine of the wood, I would guess someone put a coat of tru-oil on the stock.

The real question is what is the seller's inspection policy? I would not want to buy it only realize that I will spend more than I paid to fix all the little things.

Pete

Keep looking........

The PM indicates the kind of powder it was proofed with: smokeless M. That dates the gun to 1914 or earlier. Post-1914, proof had to be with smokeless powder T. Thus, you'll see only a PT on newer French guns.

Thanks for the info guys.

I'm going to keep looking. I had noticed that the screws were buggered. The bores are supposedly in good shape. I'm just not willing to mess with 2 1/2" shells right now, even though I do reload for all the guages.

The search continues.

OK, forget about that gun, but definitely walk away with the information that high quality 2 1/2" cartridges are EASILY gotten through modern suppliers, e.g. RST should you find yourself with the need in the future.

Hammergun,

Check your private messages, please.

SRH

Another word of advice, unsolicited. There are 10,000 people registered on this forum. You are probably not the only person looking for a good hammergun in subgauge at a reasonable price. If you see another potential qualifier, if it were me, I'd PM some of the gentlemen above about their opinions. If you keep up with this forum, you will begin to recognize others whose opinions are also valued. They will also be glad to help. Then you don't have to worry about somebody else on this list, a lurker, getting the hots for the same gun you are asking about and buying it out from under you. It can happen.

+1

I would also add that the tight chambering mentioned in the description seems to be de rigeur for many French guns, including the one I owned.

Thanks for all the really good info. If I ever find a nice Bernardelli 16 gauge, I'll be keeping that one to myself.

I'm looking for a hammergun in 410 and 16 gauge to go with my 12 and 20 gauge Bernardellis' incase anyone knows of any. I've been going with the Bernardellis because they are a good priced modern hammergun that won't break the bank, but is of good quality in my eyes.

Have you even seen VB hammerguns in .410 or 16? I have a couple of 12s and like them a lot.

The VB's are good choices in modern hammerguns. Don't think I've ever seen one in .410 or 16, but a friend had a really nice 20 set up as a pigeon gun.

The last 16 I saw was on gunbroker about 6 years ago. Before that, I'd only seen 2 of them. I didn't know Bernardelli made a 410, but there is one on Guns International for about $8k. It's super nice, but too rich for my blood. There are plenty of VB 16's for sale overseas, but how to get one here I have no idea. The 410 is going to be the hardest find. I'm not looking for a VB 410. Just something nice. The SAICE isn't too high priced for their 410. I don't know if any of you have seen the Fausti hammerguns, but they are very nice. They are probably out of my price range as well.

Jim Legg had a V Bernadelli in 28g. I shot it a round or two of skeet. Nice gun.

Hammerman

If you run across a Model 51 Husqvarna in 16 ga. you should take a look at it. Built from 1911 to 1947 they have short chambers, tight chokes, pow grip and no engraving. I picked one up 2 years ago on gunbroker for $375 because it had a short lop. A recoil pad fixed that, Mike Orlen opened up the chokes and I had a nice handling hammergun in 16 ga. for not much money.

I later had Mark Larson remove the pow grip for a straight grip (just my preference).

Nice shotgun!!! It looks alot better with the staight grip IMO too.

Just out of curiousity, what's it cost to convert a gun to straight grip? I've passed on a few guns because I don't like a pistol grip on a double.

pm sent

IIRC, there's a couple of Husqvarna 51s floating around on gunbroker at present. Worth a look.