doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Does anybody do barrel sleeve work?

I found this website through a lot of searching and a few obscure references I found in that research. I'm trying to help a friend out (he is a police officer). He is trying to do the right thing and help a guy that had his H&R Handy-gun confiscated; we sure do have some good police in Indiana.

Anyways, the PD can't return it to the owner because it is currently an unregistered NFA weapon. It's a .410 smooth bore and smooth-bore handguns are considered AOW under the NFA. His options are to have the barrel sleeved to a rifle caliber (or any rifled barrel for that matter), have the existing barrel rifled, or allow the PD to destroy the firearm.

He definitely does not want the last option because this is one of the few remaining things left from his father. He just didn't realize that it had to be registered and transferred in accordance with ATF procedures and it got confiscated.

Is anybody doing barrel sleeve work?
How about light rifling work similar to what the Taurus Judge .410 pistols have in them? Any information or help will be much appreciated. I'm just a middle-man in this but I really don't want to see a collectible firearm from the 1920's destroyed because of some bureaucratic technicality like the NFA.

John Taylor does sleeves. Here is his web site's URL

http://johntaylormachine.com/38.0.html

The NFA is most definitely NOT some bureaucratic technicality. It is a federal law with serious criminal sanctions. That your friend of a friend is getting the solicitude he is from the police is extremely generous of them.

Now, on to the main issue - how to get it back.

He needs a good lawyer who specializes in gun matters. In some states, they advertise in the local sportsman's publications. Alternatively, local dealers in Class 3/AOW NFA items may be able to point him in the right direction. As a matter of fact, that's where I'd go first if I was in his situation - the legal dealers in NFA items would know who to go to because they go through the paperwork all the time.

As I understand it, the H&R "Handi-gun" is generally recognized by ATF as a collectible item and one which is commonly found in the effects of recently deceased people who either didn't want to get them permitted under the NFA or didn't know they had to or didn't know they had a potential problem. It's sort of like those old Winchester "Trapper" lever action rifles that turn up unregistered from time to time and, because of their short barrels, are classified as a short-barrelled rifle under the NFA and therefore contraband. I am aware of instances of people being able to go to the ATF and get a letter which, in essence, admits their old Winchester "Trapper" or Ithaca "Auto and Burglar gun" (a short-barrelled 20 ga) or "Handi-gun" to the list of AOW that are registered under NFA and thereby legalize it.

Of course, it would have gone far more easily if he'd gone to that route prior to the local police seizing it.

Even then, he'd have to make sure the finished product would be legal under state law, in addition to federal. My brief perusal of a couple bulletin boards on AOW tells me it's highly likely Indiana will not allow the possession of a short-barrelled smoothbore (it appears sawed-off shotgun possession is a felony in Indiana), which is what the Handi-gun would be.

I'd have to say that, if I was a gunsmith and someone came to me to get one of those Handi-guns rifled, I'd tell him "no". Remember, the whole debacle of Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge started rolling because someone wanted gunsmithing done - cutting down a shotgun barrel, as I recall it.

It will cost him some money to do this. Only he can decide whether getting the gun back is worth it to him - none of us can put a dollar value on its sentimental worth.

Judging by the price quotes I've gotten for sleeving, this is simply not a reasonable project. Hugh Lomas also sleeves shotgun barrels:

<http://www.hglomasgunmakers.com/>

I'm not so sure that it is possible any longer to get an exception ruling from the BATFE for an unlettered AOW Firearms Act weapon. I'd give it up and remember Dad in some other way...Geo

PS: Even if you were to sleeve it to 18" it might still not meet the 26" overall length requirement.

Here's what the BATF says in one of their publications:


Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of
components.
Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various
definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the
NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon.
For example, a shotgun with a barrel length of 15 inches is an NFA weapon. If the 15- inch barrel is
removed and disposed of, the remaining firearm is not subject to the NFA because it has no barrel.
Likewise, if the 15 inch barrel is modified by permanently attaching an extension such that the barrel
length is at least 18 inches and the overall length of the weapon is at least 26 inches, the modified
firearm is not subject to the NFA. NOTE: an acceptable method for permanently installing a barrel
extension is by gas or electric steel seam welding or the use of high temperature silver solder having a
flow point of 1100 degrees Fahrenheit.
A shot pistol (�any other weapon�) such as an H&R Handy Gun may be removed from the NFA by
either disposing of the smooth bore barrel or permanently installing a rifled sleeve chambered to accept
a standard pistol cartridge into the smooth bore barrel. Modified by sleeving the barrel, an H&R Handy
Gun is no longer an NFA weapon because it now has a rifled bore.
Large caliber destructive devices that are not also machineguns can be removed from the NFA by
disposing of the barrel. If the barrel of a 37mm cannon is removed and disposed of, the remaining
weapon has no barrel or bore diameter. As an alternative, the barrel of a destructive device may be
functionally destroyed. To destroy the barrel of a destructive device the following operations must be
performed:
� Cut a hole, equal to the diameter of the bore, on a 90-degree angle to the axis of the bore,
through one side of the barrel in the high pressure (chamber) area.
� Weld the barrel to the receiver of the weapon.
� Weld an obstruction into the barrel to prevent the introduction of a round of ammunition.

************************

It's under Chapter 2 'what are NFA Firearms' in the NFA Handbook
here:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/

**********************

Converting to a rifled bore (relining) is one option. That makes the firearm a 'handgun' and takes it out of the NFA title.

Lengthening the existing smoothbore bbl to make the bbl at least 18" AND the OAL of the Handy Gun at least 26" would do the same.

I don't believe the H&R Handy Gun has been approved by the BATF for removal from NFA restrictions in it's factory built spec(s) because of it's collector or historical value.
That has been the case for Winchester and Marlin Trapper lever action rifles. They have been allowed to be reclassified as Type I firearms and removed from NFA registration and restrictions.

Sending the H&R bbl out to be relined to CF caliber would seem to be the easiest route. Something like 38sp would be easy on the gun and make it legal.
John Taylor does excellent work.

I think the bbl may be able to be rebored/rerifled to take 45 (Long)Colt if the muzzle dia is large enough,,but it would leave the 410 chamber undisturbed for the most part,,and that may not please the folks that currently have possession of your firearm and have the final say.
..and the ATF regs above do not mention rebore/rerifling as a way to 'fix' this problem,,only 'sleeving' the original barrel.

Even if someone doing the bbl relining job did not want to rechamber the bbl (not having the receiver in hand also to check headspace,ect),,just have the relined bbl sent back. It'll fit back onto the receiver if it's machined flush with the rear of the original 410 bbl,,that in itself will satisfy the requirement of removing it from the NFA.
Once back in your hands as a 'handgun',,take it to someone else to ream the chamber out.

Well said, Kutter.

Regardless of what this guy does, it's going to cost him money. I'd suspect the permanent pistol-caliber insert is likely the cheapest option.

I'd contact the NRA legal dept. It sounds like there is a small chance to get it back intact as a historical weapon. A highly modified gun is no longer "Dad's gun".

There is no chance to get it back as a historical weapon.
It is an unregistered NFA class firearm. It is contraband.
There is no program in place to now register a previously unregistered NFA firearm.
The Handy Gun has not been removed from their NFA class by the BATF as the short barreled Winchester & Marlin 'trapper' rifles & the shoulder stocked Luger and Mauser pistols have.

If it were a full auto firearm or a silencer, no options would be given to deactivate or alter to allow them to be returned to their owner.
The H&R Handy Gun is specificly listed & illistrated as an example of the AOW by the BATF.

Either take it as modified to meet the handgun or shotgun Type I firearm classification they specify, or loose it altogether by forfeiture to L/E.

I'd take Dad's Handy Gun w/a CF liner in the bbl. It won't change anything on the outside of the gun. It'll be a bit heavier for sure!
But it won't be a manhole cover in Bloomberg-ville.
JMHO