doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Verney-Carron Helicobloc

Raimey, I think you're grasping at very thin straws. A company that patented the Helice lockins system "more of a firearms merchant"? I don't think so . . . although their 1922 catalog does include a number of guns made by others--and clearly marked as made by others. Their sxs, on the other hand: All V-C. The tradition of taking credit for what they made and not for what they didn't continued right up to their 1999 catalog, in which they clearly identify the two models of V-C sxs thusly:

"Les Helux et Jet sont fabriques pour notre compte dans l'Union Europeene . . . ". Which translates as being made for them in the European Union.

V-C survives to this day, one of a relatively few St. Etienne firms still in business. They make a wide range of OU's, and in their "custom" workshop (L'Atelier Verney-Carron), they turn out higher grade OU's and bespoke sxs. Indeed, nothing but a firearms merchant.

True, for now, it may be Too Thin, Rooster! Too Thin! But I do ask for a little breadth and an open mind. For so long so many fantasies have been propagated regarding gun-makers. And sure at it's pinnace(feel free to give an exact date) v-C may have performed all tasks in-house. But their desire to control leads me to believe that they wanted to be more of quality control like many of the HofB�chsenmachers of a bygone era. Sure, V-C survives today and is probably unrecognizable compared to its design/development stage/former glory & I bet my hat that if you ask one of the current partners, they will have amnesia regarding prior performance. Like I said, catalogues are for entertainment and chest pounding. So be prepared that when I have adequate time to thoroughly investigate and read the gun-makers sourcing tea leaves, that the truth not surprise you. Until till then, maybe hide & watch. But feel free to contribute any and all info that supports your ideal status that keeps V-C on a pedestal here or by email. This is just capital.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Not sure it adds anything to this discussion, but my V-C (circa early '50s, maybe a bit earlier) has Jacob Holtzer stamp on the barrels.

Sure it does; all pertinent input has value. I'd say it distinguishes the Jacob Holtzer tube steel from the Belgian sourced variants. Maybe if it doesn't read Jacob Holtzer, the tube steel was sourced elsewhere?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I do not have a clue what was done in the old days, but I can say that all the 12 & 20ga shotgun barrels made in the 30+ years were made in house. They also make finished OEM barrels for several other mfgs, provide barrel blanks and have made every replacement barrel sold under the "Hastings" brand name.
Barrels are hammer forged, and yes I have seen the machines although I do not have the exact date they were installed.

Ken:
Sounds something akin to hearsay and I don't know that it could be entered as evidence. But I would take Jerry's word on it though.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Seeing the machines are akin to hearsay, Raimey? Yikes. Methinks you've been overcelebrating the holiday.

I have no reason to put V-C on a pedestal. However, you keep raising objections to which responses are forthcoming, at which point you raise other objections. For example, re V-C remaining the "principal" . . . it was V-C that survived, after absorbing Breuil, F. Darne, etc. Not vice versa. The people running the company are still named Verney-Carron, as they have been for almost 200 years. Fairly unusual in the gun business these days, wouldn't you say?

Nah, not too much over celebration on Memorial Day as there were just too many tasks at hand but might be more inclined for tomorrow's celebration of Jefferson Davis' birthday. We will sort of the chaffe/chaff sooner or later.

I do wonder if there are any Belgian/French sporting weapons with the toplever stop that are not associated with a V-C design? Antoine Cordy of Liege may have but was it because he absorbed V-C in 1929 and continued till? Or vice-versa?




A. Maisonnial--Helice Gripp
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=333022385




http://www.gunsinternational.com/Gripp-Helico-Boxlock-Ejector-12-bore.cfm?gun_id=100341764




Thivillier Freres


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey;
I almost went into shock, but Jefferson Davis' Birthday is noted on my Calendar.
I have an American Lefever, a British J P Clabrough & a German J P Sauer which all have top levers which stop at Center, though their stops do not look like that of the VC. The Clabrough & Sauer both have a Scott type spindle with double underbolts while the Lefever has a side pivot lever with a top bolt engaging the Doll's Head.

Raimey, Cordy absorbed V-C in 1929? I'm beginning to think you're seriously into controlled substances. I have a V-C catalog from 1922, as well as pages from V-C's 1934 catalog. The latter states: "Manufacture d'Armes Verney-Carron, St-Etienne (Loire). Depots: Paris, 37, rue Vivienne - Lyon, 8, rue des Archers." If there was any absorbing going on, seems to me V-C would have ended up in Belgium--which they clearly did not. Likely some Belgian makers just recognized and used a good design, as in the Helice system. (Under "Nos Representants a l'Etranger" in their 1922 catalog, V-C lists Algeria, Chile, Indo-China, Switzerland, Egypt, Morocco, Portugal, and Transvaal. Zip in Belgium.)