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Forums10
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Mar 29th, 2024
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2009
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Does anyone have or know where I could read more about Syracuse Arms. There is one for sale on GB that look interesting. I suspect they were manufactured in Syracuse NY, but any information will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
John
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,888 Likes: 107
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,888 Likes: 107 |
There was a lengthy series of articles on Syracuse Arms Co. in The Double Gun Journal by Tom Archer and Jack Maedel.
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,888 Likes: 107 |
Wow!! A lot of the text in that first link looks like words I wrote on this board about a decade ago -- Syracuse Arms Co. (m) -- Syracuse Arms Company was founded by Frank Hollenbeck after he left Baker Gun & Forging Company in Batavia, New York, and returned to Syracuse in 1893. Between 1893 and 95 Frank had nine patents assigned to Syracuse Arms. The early guns are very tricky to take down, but Frank's patent number 523,813 for a "Movable Cocking Shoulder for Breakdown Guns" would have made this easier. After a couple of years Frank left to make bicycle seats but the company continued to operate until possibly as late as 1908. The earlier guns are marked "The Hollenbeck" and after Frank left in August 1895 they are often marked "The Syracuse." Syracuse Arms Company guns were made in two series -- the stock guns, which had grades designated by numbers 00, 0, 1, 2, and 3; and the special order guns which had grades designated by letters, A, A-1, B, C, and D. List prices in the 1902 catalogue ranged from $30 for the 00-Grade with Triplet Steel barrels to $475 for the D-grade with either Whitworth Fluid or Damascus barrels. Operating in the Syracuse area the company had access to some of this country's finest engravers in the Glahn family. I briefly owned a straight-gripped B-grade that had some of the best engraving (not in quantity but in execution) I've ever seen on an American gun. Wish I'd kept it but its blued over Damascus barrels turned me off. The Syracuse Arms collector in Georgia who, last I knew, had it has had the barrels correctly rebrowned and the gun is a beauty.
The ejectors for Syracuse Arms Co. were designed by George A. Horne and featured a cut-off to set them to just extract if wanted. Horne later worked for the A.H. Fox gun Co. as did George A. Moser who was, I believe, the Syracuse Arms plant manager in the later years.
Two excellent articles on Frank Hollenbeck were published in The Gun Report -- "The Syracuse Arms Company and Frank Hollenbeck" by the late A.C. Atterbury in the July 1988 issue, and "New Notes of Frank A. Hollenbeck" by H.J. Swinney in the September 1991 issue. Tom Archer has begun a series of article on Syracuse Arms Co. in The Double Gun Journal. Toms series begins in Volume Fourteen, Issue 1.
After the bicycle seats, Frank was briefly with Baltimore Arms Company, then in 1901 founded the Hollenbeck Gun Co. in Wheeling, West Virginia, to make his three-barrel gun as well as doubles.
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,703 Likes: 103 |
Yes, a lot of what we all know about old doubles comes from your research and your willingness to share. Thanks!...Geo
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,862
Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I have one I recently bought. ("The Hollenbeck" model) Right now the barrels have been struck and polished, it's ready for an initial etch and then rust bluing/Damascus refinishing.
There seems to be a lack of specific info on grading, perhaps Researcher would be so kind as to elaborate. I'm referring to the difference between the number grades (00 through 3) and the letter grades. (A through D, including the A-1 Special Trap)
Mine appears to be a Grade 1 with twist barrels, but it has fairly extensive engraving. It was described as a "C" grade, but I'm not sure if that was accurate. I'd post pics, but unfortunately the receiver has quite a bit of surface rust and discoloration, so the engraving is hard to make out. I'm still debating as how I'm going to tackle it, in order to preserve as much as possible.
I've seen other SAC guns described as grade "D" but with considerably less engraving as well as twist barrels, so I still don't have a good feel for the grading system.
I really like mine, I can hardly wait to hunt with it this Fall.
Ken
Last edited by Ken61; 07/21/14 05:55 PM.
I prefer wood to plastic, leather to nylon, waxed cotton to Gore-Tex, and split bamboo to graphite.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,190 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,190 Likes: 15 |
"Does anyone have or know where I could read more about Syracuse Arms. There is one for sale on GB that look interesting. I suspect they were manufactured in Syracuse NY, but any information will be greatly appreciated.'
John
I don't post very often anymore, but will come out of my hole long enough to assist you in whatever manner I can. Yes, the Syracuse Arms Company was located in Syracuse, NY; and that is indeed where the guns were manufactured. Which gun on GB has peeked your interest? I suppose I've seen more than my share; but to be honest, I haven't found an example of the SAC gun there recently that I've found very interesting. The dealer in Olathe has a couple of early Hollenbeck marked Grade 0 guns (Grade 0, the lowest grade at that time) that have lots of case color; but are a bit over-priced in my opinion. There's an early Grade A (early model frame, no ejector ON/OFF device) that is beautifully restored; but I don't see the gun ever bringing that kind of money being asked. There's another over-priced and well used Grade O for sale there also; and if you search under the word "Hollenbeck" you'll find two or three other Syracuse guns on GB(SAC guns were marked "THE HOLLENBECK" up till about 1896, Hollenbeck resigned from the company in July, 1895; an act that most certainly ticked off the BOD, as the gun was then renamed THE SYRACUSE). But there is one early SAC/Hollenbeck gun listed there that is a very decent and all original example; it is a Grade 1 model with twist barrels and line and scroll engraving. The only difference between the Grade 0 and Grade 1 Hollenbeck and/or Syracuse marked guns is that the Grade 1 model featured a fair amount of line and scroll engraving (no game scenes), and the Grade 0 had no engraving. The Grade O Twist barreled gun listed for $30 at retail, while the Grade 1 Twist barreled engraved model listed for $35. The Grade 1 was discontinued very soon after the gun name changed from HOLLENBECK to SYRACUSE; so that a Grade 1 SYRACUSE model is hard to find. The only real interesting Syracuse gun I've seen on GB in quite a while sold 2-3 months ago; a second model Grade 3 ejector (no ON/OFF device) with Krupp Steel barrels. The Grade 3 was never cataloged with anything but "Improved Damascus" barrel tubes; so this was a special order gun, or one example from a special promotion. I actually bid on that gun, but wasn't willing to pay the hammer price as I have the only other Grade 3 Krupp barreled SAC gun I've come across; but someone got a very rare gun in that auction and I hope they realize their good fortune. Although I own an AE Grade 16-bore with factory engraved quail on the guardbow (only A Grade I've ever seen with factory game scenes), game scenes on SAC guns were not cataloged until the $125 Grade A-1 Special Trap, which had bird scenes (two quail/two woodcock) on each side of the receiver. The Grade B and above guns had dog scenes and/or special ordered game scenes (have seen a CE with a running rabbit on the left side); but SAC grades higher that the Grade A are really hard to find. Like someone here has already stated, everything you ever wanted to know ad-nausem about the SAC gun has been printed in my double gun articles.
Ken61 - Your gun is an early example $35 Grade 1 gun. And yes, I've seen low grades advertised in all manner of grades; the most common being Grade "D". I believe I recall that even one of the above referenced Olathe, KS O Grade guns is listed as a Grade D? I believe the reason/confusion for this mislabeling is from the barrel stamps just in front of the barrel flats. One will often see three stamps on each barrel such as "1" "D" "J" and in that order. I'm almost certain the "1" barrel stamp denotes a light-weight gun, the the "2" stamp found on most standard 30" tubed guns denotes a mid-weight gun; and the "3" stamp the heaviest weight SAC guns. I have no idea what the other stamps denote, although I think the "J" is the barrel regulator's mark? And no one has a good "feel" of the Grading designation for the early Hollenbeck guns; and we may never find the key needed to decipher the "code". I wrote an article several years ago on a Grade D Hollenbeck gun that remains the most elaborately engraved SAC gun I've ever seen, yet the serial number of that gun is consecutive to another Grade D Hollenbeck with high grade barrels and no more engraving than your Grade 1. I'm at a loss for an explanation other than the early Grade D guns were advertised as special ordered to each customer's taste. As of today, I've yet to see an early Hollebeck Graded A, B, or C marked gun; only the 0, 1, 2, 3, and a few D's. I've seen one Grade 3 that was over-stamped with a "D" over the 3 (had to look close, but the gun features clearly showed the piece as a Grade 3). This gun was not a Grade D, but the original Grade 3 engraving pattern had been gussied up (perhaps an employee gun, or engraving exmaple for consideration) with added scrolls and sworls so that the frame was mostly covered (the work was well done); but it clearly had Grade 3 pattern Damascus barrels, and its broken stock was clearly featured Grade 3 quality wood and checkering pattern (also had the "3" Grade stamp on the wood under the trigger guard). That gun was later re-stocked with the late Grade D style checkering, carving pattern, and wood quality; then sold for good money as an authentic Grade D gun. And I'm not saying the gun wasn't worth the money, 'cause it did look good; only that it wasn't an authentic SAC "D" quality gun (I have a pic of that over-stamped grade mark somewhere in my files). After the gun name was changed to THE SYRACUSE a sufficient number of original facory catalogs have survived so that Grade ID from that point to the end of production is not an issue; but unlike Parker and LeFever collecotors, the SAC gun collector doesn't have to worry much about faked guns, with the above noted Grade 3 gun the only up-graded SAC gun I've ever seen.
"Wow!! A lot of the text in that first link looks like words I wrote on this board about a decade ago."
Dave - Either you wrote that short essay, or it was Daryl Halquist who sold the gun to me, which was an early Grade B SAC gun. By the way, I see copies of quotes from my reseach scattered about on a number of web-sites (like the noted Gun Values board above); and like you, someone esle usually gets credit. As my sole reason for posting anything outside DGS and one or two other forums is an attempt to clarify all the misinformation about the SAC gun that is continually reguritated by the misinformed, I only care when some knucklehead comments that I don't know what the hello I talking about. And like others have I've also used bits of your research, being sure to give you credit in the process; in fact, if you can remember the Fox article I wrote, I even give you credit when I misquote what it is you've said!
In spite of the fact that I thoroughly enjoyed the effort, I've said/written way too much; so if you actually read crap all the way through, I am most gratified for your patience. Tom
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,862
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,862 |
Thanks Tom,
You've explained everything. Mine is one of the lightweight guns you described, in addition to being a Grade 1.
John,
The Hollenbeck on GB from the MA seller appears to be the same as mine, a Grade 1/twist. At least that's what it looks like when I blow up the pic as far as my computer allows. The engraving appears to be similar.
Regards
Ken
I prefer wood to plastic, leather to nylon, waxed cotton to Gore-Tex, and split bamboo to graphite.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,718 Likes: 479
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,718 Likes: 479 |
I would like to thank both Tom and Dave for their efforts and information. It has been a constant source of intelligent information that I have enjoyed and used for decades. Knowledge which has both saved me time and money and made me spend even more time and money at the same time.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 768 Likes: 19
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 768 Likes: 19 |
Thank you all very much. The knowledge and experience of posters on this forum continues to amaze. The gun making fraternity in NY must have been tight: Baker, Lefever, Remington, Smith, and Syracuse. It would be nice to have a representative gun from each.
Once again,
Thanks
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