doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Spanish "Not so Best".

Lots of talk and photos of "Spanish Best" stuff on the board of late, so, I thought I'd post a photo of the single Spanish gun in my collection, and the reason it is there.




This is a "Falcon" built by Ugartechea in 1972. It was specified with 3" chambers, tight chokes (not anymore, they are about CYL/IC) hidden third fastener, and disc set strikers. I bought it to have a double when I was hunting in rough weather, or with a friends unruly Labradors, who have broken the wrists of two shotguns in the time I have known them, and lifted their leg and watered two others, none of them my guns (I know what to expect with his dogs) or when I was forced to use non-toxic shot, which, is mostly steel, in my world. The stock had a broken toe when I got it that had been repaired, and I had it bent over left, without any of the thoughts of resale that would go with doing that to a higher grade gun. I had a new recoil pad fitted to replace the spiffy "White Line" that was installed back in the day-nobody ever went broke underestimating American tastes, after all.
I use it as a traveler, also. The little tool box has spare strikers, and a tool for them, and a few other maintenance items in it, and fits in the K & K aluminum case, which, is Lab proof. I also have the duffle with the bottom compartment the case fits in, and it has been to Europe and South America, over the years.

I have a gun that is even lower rung than this, but, it isn't a double, and gets loaned out or used for trap more than anything else. I hate beating up anything that costs a bunch of money. A few years back, guns just like this were all over the auction sites at sub $500 price levels, something that seems to have changed these days.

This is why I have a Spanish gun. Most of my hunting is rougher than rough, and if it rains or snows on the day I have set aside to go, I still go-hunting days are scheduled and precious. I feed it anything I want, and I don't worry too much about the ramifications of that. If I lost it on a trip, I'd be bummed, but, not all that concerned and not out much money. I've actually given thought to having a tube put in the left barrel, but, the gun works just fine, for birds, just the way it is.

Best,
Ted

Not a POS Ted

Ted,

Seems the Best Gun to fit your needs :-)

A local smith takes some cheap doubles and improves their handling by removing bottom ribs, polishing internals, dimming the bright cheap finishes. The bottom line is about 1000 Euro for a SXS that handles extremely well and has no heirloom angst. They are what a poster said of a good shotgun: "makes you smile when you pick it up and not cry when you drop it". Ted's double seems to fit right in to that category.

Interesting that Drew posted a POS shotgun. I had a very good friend who had a 10ga Spanish gun he was going to use for hunting geese. Worked fine the first hunt, but the next weekend, both bbls wouldn't fire. Took it to a gunsmith who inspected it. Well, the firing pins were mushroomed. The other internal parts were so crude and one the gunsmith bent by hand. The smith said, it wasn't worth fixing. As the gun was bought new he returned it for his money and bought a 1100 with it. Soured him on doubles to this day.

The truth is a lot of cheap crappy Spanish gun have been imported here as we all know. If you look on some of the auction/sales sites you can still find them....for cheap.

That being said, some cheaper Spanish guns have gave and are giving good service. I have a few high end Spanish guns that are as good as some of my English guns and couple that are even better.

I like Spanish guns a lot, but I'm also no fool in thinking that all Spanish guns are "hand Made" like some maintain. Sure they are slapped together by hand, but not all have had the intensive hand work that the higher end guns are given.

Best,

Greg

Well, yes, on somedays. I was actually quite surprised when I opened the box after I bought it off gunbroker, at the stiff price of $404, shipped. The trigger pulls were decent, the checkering is much better than what one typically sees on a Spanish gun, even today, and the poor old girl had seen little actual use.

I do own better guns, Kyrie-It would take quite a bit more than $20,000 to duplicate this gun, a 28 gauge V19 Darne, with a new replacement, today:



But, I do still wonder why I own better guns when the "Not so Bests" have worked out so well.

Best,
Ted

Ted,

Your reasons for not taking an expensive gun afield makes sense. I bet you have a few nice ones, though.

I have three levels of shotguns, from best guns to mass produced pumps. I like them all as long as it is an honest gun. I use and shoot all three quality level guns during bird season, dependent on weather and field conditions and where I am hunting. Ironically, it seems that my best guns get scratched and banged up the most but I generally shoot a custom fitted, right weighted, gun better. However, at this point in time in my life, I am not unhappy to miss a bird and watch it fly away to safety.

Ted,

I do like the Darne guns, and have almost pulled the trigger on several of them. I'd actually be hard pressed to verbalize whatever it is that has kept me from hitting the "Bid" button.

Now, with tongue firmly in cheek, here is a Darne for the birds that want to shoot back :-)

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=474374545

I've dabbled in machine guns since 85 and that is the 1st one of those I have ever seen! One thing is for sure, that MG is Darne ugly!

I�ve seen the same thing happen in a Pedro Arrizabalaga. The problem of parts that are poorly heat treated, or not heat treated at all, is sometimes an issue with Spanish shotguns. The problem is not related to maker, or price point, and it�s just as likely to happen on a top end gun as a bottom end gun. The problem is just an artifact of the network of suppliers of parts and the inability of that network to scale up for sudden higher demand.

As an aside, this is one of the reasons I prefer used guns. If I buy a functional twenty year old gun I know that either it never had a problem with poorly heat treated parts, or the problem was detected and solved many years ago.

Groan!

Hehehe.. couldn't resist:)

Good one, Tex.

SRH

I actually had a PM discussion with Ted about a month ago concerning this gun because I had bought one from a guy walking it around a gun show about 7-8 years ago. When he showed it to me and said he'd take no less than $200.00, that seemed like a no-brainer given its' very nice condition, even though I like my Lefevers as much as Ted likes his Darnes.

I never really knew what it was other than knowing it was marked I Ugartechea, Eibar Spain, and was stamped Falcon on the watertable. I thought it was a model 30, but Ted tells me it is actually an upgrade of that model. It has 26" barrels chambered 3" and weighs only 6 lb. 4 oz. It has always been very reliable, and it can be very economical to shoot because often I can buy 12 ga. shells for modern guns very cheaply that I would not ever consider using in any vintage double. The case colors are very nice, and the moderate amount of engraving isn't bad looking or cheesy. Most seem to have pretty plain wood, but I was lucky enough to get one with a little crotch figure in the butt. My varnish is flaking near the buttplate, so it could use a refinish and a slight lowering of the somewhat sharp comb to fit me better. It still has those stylish 1970's white line spacers under the buttplate and grip cap that Ted wisely ditched. At the time I was having my PM discussion with Ted, there were a couple Spanish guns in the For Sale section here with several thousand dollar prices, and from the photos, the checkering on my cheap Uggie seemed equally well executed to one and actually better than the other. It sure is easier on the eyes than most of the under $1500.00 Turkish doubles, and it doesn't have those monobloc lines on the barrels either. In fit, finish, and appearance, it beats any Winchester 24, Savage, or Fox Model B by miles. Best of all, if I fell down while grouse hunting in slashings and treetops, it wouldn't be any great financial loss if I broke it.

Kyrie,
A Darne, is an acquired taste. I like to think that is true of most double shotguns at this juncture in history. There are several idiosyncratic aspects with a Darne that make it more so. To begin with, a Darne must fit you. The stock is held on with a long wood screw, which will not allow for any bend adjustments. LOP is the only thing you can alter, economically, anyway. The action is novel, and takes most of a season of use to become familiar with. The design is light, and, unless the gun was specified to be heavier, they are often too light for most people. My 12 weighs but 6lbs, 1oz, with it's sling attached.
I know folks that have sold everything they owned and converted completely over to sliding breech guns, but, I'm not one of them-but, you have been warned.
If you choose to go down that road, do contact me if you have a question about a gun you are considering. Maybe I could be of help.
This is a photo of both of my Darnes, and the case colored R10 has had a long term role in my hunting. It is restocked to fit me, and a wonderful hunting gun.




The Darne machine gun was primarily intended for pre-WWII aircraft. If there is a lighter fully automatic weapon intended for that use, I'd be truly surprised.
I can't say I anticipate a use for one in my collection, however.


Best,
Ted

I hope you get the old soldier out a bit this fall, Keith. One other thing I detested on mine were the gold plated triggers. I yanked them out and wire wheeled them until it was all gone. Agreed, they are better looking than a lot of guns made here in the US 75 years ago, or anything out of Turkey, at any time.
Lloyd and I have been toying with the idea of a Northwest Angle hunt in northern MN. this fall, and I would more than likely bring this Uggy for that. Access is tough, an indian land's license is required, and I'd be willing to bet the country is wild. Some of it might be canoe access, only. A solid and inexpensive 12 would make sense for that kind of grouse hunting.

Best,
Ted

Oh hell Ted, I'll be shooting that Ugartechea in a couple weeks when the purple grackles start trying to get into the soffit of my big garage to nest. The bastards somehow get the aluminum soffit out of the F channel and stuff twigs in to hold it open enough so they can squeeze in and out. I'll be whacking them with Wally World promo loads and clearance sale high brass factories rather than wasting any RST's or low pressure handloads on them. The survivors get educated pretty quickly and then present some fast and challenging shots.

My E grade Lefever has gold plated triggers, so I don't find that part offensive on my Falcon. But those white line spacers gotta go.

Ted,

Fine looking guns that aren�t doing a thing for my peace of mind! Let me see if I can get on top of my addiction to Spanish Steel, and we�ll talk�

I have a couple of Spanish "Not so Best" guns also. This is a 20 gauge Jose Uriguen that I gave $350 for just a few years ago. I call it my boat gun and use it when I jump shoot snipe from my boat. It it also the gun I usually take when I am expecting it to rain. I don't worry about it getting beat up and I wouldn't lose any sleep if it fell off the post in the mud while I was taking a group picture at the end of the hunt.

I only have one "much less than best" Spanish shotgun and it's a 10 ga Gorosabel.

It was about $80.00 used about 40 years ago and I used to shoot the heck out of it without a hiccup. I tore it down last year to replace the white lined pad and refinish the wood, with the intent of putting it back into service for waterfowl. Never got around to putting the new pad on, but I intend to have it ready for the fall waterfowl season.

Hi Ted,

I have an Ugartechea 28 ga marked 'Churchill Royal'. It certainly is not an English Churchill, but it is a decent knockabout upland gun.

It sounds similar to yours, but it has a straight grip and does not have a third fastener. Looks like photos I have seen of the M30.

Anyway, I really like your idea of carrying spare strikers. Do you remember where you found yours and the 3-pronged tool to remove the disks?

Thanks

Cole Haugh made 'em. He went through a period in his life when he was the importer, sorta' like me with the Darnes, and does gunsmithing as well. If you need parts for an Uggy, start with him.
Google him.

Best,
Ted

Ted: Where do you figure the cut-off is for "Not so Best"? I have a late 90s New England Arms lefty Arietta 557 in 12 that has been used fairly hard and even dropped once or twice (by me)! Live and learn. I wish it was an 800 series gun so it could better reflect my now, more-evolved tastes, but it fits me so well.... I could never part with it. I'm guessing retail value these days would be well under $3K.

Not speaking for Ted, but when I saw the phrase "not so best" my English to English translator popped out "inexpensive, workingman's gun", "truck (or boat or barn) gun"

Here's what I take out when things are slick enough that I'm worried about falling on the gun and breaking a stock:

Astra Imperial,12 Gauge:




Zabala Hermanos "Churchill Windsor", 20 gauge via Kassnar:






Industrias Ilja .410, via Davidsons:

Lloyd,
You're asking the wrong guy. I couldn't pick out grades of Spanish guns if I had a gun to my head.
I will say this-right after the A and D boxlock came into being, there were English firms that finished them up as "Bests".
I'm guessing that era only lasted 10-20 years. Dig would know. People, both buyers and makers figured out it didn't take that much to get a boxlock out the door, compared to a sidelock, and people weren't going to pay best prices for them.
I doubt the Spanish ever went through that same thing. A boxlock is always a shooter, and a sidelock is a bit more.
The boxlock Falcons, like mine and Keith's, came with features that were specified by American Imports, circa 1972, and those features read like a wish list for someone who doesn't want to concern themselves with what ammunition they use today-3" chamber and proof, well fitted hidden third fastener, in addition to double under bolts, disc set strikers, brazed barrels, and a file cut rib. I got 28" tubes on mine, but, I could have dealt with 26" if I had to. I've heard reports that a brazed barrel is the way to go on a beater you feed hot or hard shot loads, but, I'll leave final analysis of that to the people who sell my R10 and my Uggy, after I am dead. I intend to use the hell out of them, both
There is a juncture, if you will, somewhere between where the chokes have been opened up to make steel usable in it, and my lack of concern because I don't have enough time or opportunity to destroy the Uggy with steel, or, just don't care if I do.
I guess I consider it a shooter for the times.

Best,
Ted

I bought this Uggie (model unknown) off someone on the shotgun world forum and it was a mess. The top lever spring was missing, and a coil spring was placed over the automatic safety rod to push the bolt back into battery. One hammer spring was missing, and was replaced with what looked like it could have been the wayward toplever spring. It had been left to rust and then the whole rotting pile had been painted with gunkote, which is glorified Rustoleum.
I did all that I could, and it made a trip to Cole Haugh to finish up what I couldn't figure out, and my son has been shooting the crap out of it ever since. I don't worry about him dropping it that is for sure. If it had been a nice gun to start with I wouldn't have been able to bring myself to cut several inches off both ends either.
He should outgrow it just about the time my daughter is ready for it, and when she is done with it I am sure it will "find" another kid that needs it.
CHAZ

Hoof,
I might have to look you up-I have an 8 year old. What gauge is it?

I have a model 17 with a short LOP, but, it isn't short enough for a kid, not a kid younger than about 14, anyway. I wonder what I will start him with.
How old was your boy when you started him with that?

Best,
Ted

CJ was 9 when he started shooting this gun, but he is large for his age. I am figuring that my daughter will be slightly older before she can handle it. It is a 12 gauge.
I tried several different youth guns with him and this is what worked best. The 12 gauge gun weighs more than most 20's which helped mitigate recoil. I have it cut to 25" barrels and a 12" LOP. I like a break open gun because at a glance I can tell the gun is open and "safe." We hunt over a pointer so for the first year we even carried our guns open in the field until passing the dog for a flush.
It was also (in my experience) much easier to get low recoil/low pressure shells for the 12 gauge than for a 20 gauge. All the low pressure pet loads and RST offerings for shooting aging guns are perfect low recoil shells for a kid.
CHAZ

This is CJ putting "Winston" to work at Hausmanns.

Here's one of mine. It's 1959 Gaspar Arizaga with a straight stock. It's choked imp/cyl-mod so it's a nice one for over my dog.

Here are a couple of Spanish "not so best guns". The top is a 12 gauge Loyola from 1966. The bottom gun is an El Faisan 20 gauge ejector gun from 1964. I use them for upland the odd time. Well, not so much the 20 gauge. It is quite a petite gun but it only has a 12 1/4" LOP. I thought about adding a removable spacer at the pad but haven't done it yet as I have let a few youth shoot it out at the cabin. It's great for a "youngin" or a lady with shorter arms.

The Spanish gun makers have a long history of producing very fine, and very expensive, box lock shotguns. The only two makers I know of that still catalog a box lock are AyA and Ugartechea, and only AyA catalogs a truly top end box lock in the XXV-BL:



Back before the great crisis the gun makers went through in the 1980s just about all the makers offered top end box lock guns, with full coverage engraving, including medium and deep relief engraving. Garbi, Grulla, Francisco Sarriugarte, Joaqu�n Fern�ndez, Eduardo Schilling, et. al. offered box lock guns that that ran from impressive to just stunning.

Here is a Ugartechea from the 1950s:






Francisco Sarriugarte, ornate engraving with gold inlay:



I�ve seen Spanish box lock guns with extensive damascene engraving, deep relief game scenes, even inlay done in platinum. These guns are rare, just as top end side lock guns are rare, and for the same reason; not many could afford to have one made.

Kyrie: Have you ever seen the AyA Bournebrook?

Here's my Uggie boxlock.

Yep! Pretty gun, no?

Ken61,

Striking gun - thanks for sharing!

Kyrie,
I over simplified a bit in my analysis I suppose, and I'm sorry about that. My point was that when the A and D boxlock came along in England, it took a bit for the market to sort out which would be the best. To that end, gunmakers did indeed finish boxlocks to the same level as sidelocks, and a few, priced their boxlocks actually higher than their sidelock guns-Greener, for example, with the Facile Princepts.
I'll let others debate what makes either design "best" but, one can find English boxlocks from the era I am speaking of that have chopper lump barrels, dropper points in the stock, church windows, a scalloped action back, and intercepting sears. The engraving and finish would have been equal or superior to the same companies sidelock model.
It seems to me that by the time the A and D patents had expired, and the Spanish invoked the sincerest form of flattery, the market in England had decided which version was the best, and would thus be the most expensive gun they produced, or, the only design they would produce.
And the Spanish took those lessons, and ran.
Now, a question, if I may?
Was there ever a time when a boxlock was AYAs, or some other gun makers, most expensive gun to buy in Spain? That did happen in England. Was there ever a Spanish boxlock that included all the features I named above, and sold for more money than the companies top of the line sidelock, to the best of your knowledge?

Best,
Ted

PS Not to be too critical, but, the gold inlays on the gun you posted are not to my liking, not to mention whatever is going on with the floorplate not fitting up. Gamescene is a difficult task master, and few humans have ever mastered that art form. Just my opinion.
I do like Winston Churchill's inlay work. I won't be buying any of it, any time soon, however.

Ted,

I think we may have several sub-threads emerging here :-)



In terms of producing box lock guns with engraving/finish equal to that on the same company�s side lock guns, the Spanish went down that same road. Looking back on the catalogs from the first half of the twentieth century many makers offered side lock and box lock guns with the same engraving pattern on each type of gun, modified as needed to fit the smaller engraving area of the box lock.



I don�t think the question can be answered as asked. Going back into the 1920s to about the 1950s, I could walk into any gun maker that offered both box lock guns and side lock guns, order a base model box lock, and add enough options to make that base model box lock more expensive than the top side lock, as cataloged.

(Aside: Hmmm� I could probably do that today at, say, AyA by ordering a 28 gauge N 4/53 with a really elaborate engraving pattern from the 1950s, extra barrels in .410 and 32 gauge, and adding a H&H assisted opener.)

In terms of the type of barrels, I�d have been offered a choice that included chopper lump, monoblock, and a possible a few other options. Secondary sears were pretty much standard but could be omitted on request. Action shape (straight, scalloped in any of several styles) was to customer choice. I don�t know what dropper points or church windows are.

Have I misunderstood the question?

Here is an auction for an AyA No. 2:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=473115624

The No. 2 is the �affordable� version of the No. 1. A part of what makes the No. 2 affordable is the engraving isn�t hand cut � it�s either roll marked (i.e. stamped) or etched into the metal via laser. The gun above has the lock �engraving� stamped into the metal via roll marking. Take a close look at the �engraving� around the cocking indicators and notice it�s off center.

Kyrie,
If you walked into Greener's prior to the turn of the last century, and asked what his top model was, it was a boxlock. Some years later, that particular model of boxlock was gone, and the top model was a sidelock. He would, at that later time, build you a straight A&D boxlock, that cost less money than either the sidelock, or the Facile Princeps boxlock.
What I am asking is, was that ever the case in Spain? Was there a company that had, as it's most expensive model, a boxlock over the same companys sidelock?
Options don't really enter the picture. Neither does a base model boxlock, as that isn't what we are after. A few of the English makers believed the boxlock was the next, best thing, and built them as their top of the line gun for some time. Then, that time ended, (except, maybe, at Westley Richards) and the sidelock was the top dog, again.

Oh, the #2 you linked to has drop points in the stock-they are those stylish teardrop shaped carvings to the wood behind the lock plate. Good, English boxlocks from the era I'm alluding to do as well. Church windows refer to checkering that is in the area where the wood meets the back of the action on a boxlock. Very high grade American boxlocks will be seen with this treatment on occasion (think higher grade Parkers and Foxes) as will best work English boxlocks. I think it looks best with a sculpted action back. A very well fitted sculpted action back, by the way. I've never seen a Spanish boxlock with the pins installed for intercepting sears, but, the English did that on their best boxlocks.

What say ye, Kyrie?

Best,
Ted

I don�t know that the question can be answered as asked. Spanish gun makers didn�t produce just a single box lock and a single side lock. They produced (and still produce) a range of side lock guns. Back in the day when the makers all produced box lock guns too, they produced a range of box locks.

In those cases when a maker made a box lock and a side lock version of the same gun, the side lock always had a higher cost to make and consequently a higher price point at sale. That was just a function of the side lock having more space that had to be engraved.

If we want to get into an apples and oranges comparison, it was not unusual for a maker�s most ornate box lock to cost more to produce � and sell at a higher price � than the maker�s most basic side lock. And his most ornate side lock was always more expensive than his most basic box lock.

I know very little about the English gun trade and its business models, but based on the sense of how it worked I�m getting from your questions, I�d have to say the Spanish makers went about things very differently.

If you asked a Spanish gun maker what his �top model� was he would not know what you meant. He might open a catalog and point to the model that sells the most guns in a year, or to the model with the top price point, or just ask you �top model for what?� Spanish shotguns are purpose built, and the "top model" for live pigeon would be different from the "top model" for driven birds, which would be different from the "top model" for fur and feather hunting.


Ah! That�s what you meant. Drop points I know, it was your reference to �dropping points� that lost me. The Spanish gun makers view drop points as an affectation almost as bad as gold plated lock parts. They will happily put drop points to a stocks if that�s what a customer wants, but they aren�t happy with it or impressed by that customer.


Ah, so that what those things are called.


Again, the Spanish view diverges. It�s rare to find �Church windows� on a Spanish box lock; they are thought to be decidedly lower class. I think the only Spanish box locks I�ve seen with church windows were some inexpensive Zabala Hermanos guns brought into the States just before Zabala closed, and an Armas Erbi hardware store gun made back in the 1960s.


I�m not a box lock person and cannot comment from my own knowledge. That said, the guys I know who are Spanish box lock mad tell me secondary sears are more common than not on their box locks.

Best,

Found one of the ZH guns with church windows:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/BSA-Cla...un_id=100527115

There is something about border-less checkering that doesn't look right on a sxs. Or, maybe I'm just getting old.

Kyrie,
Thanks.

Best,
Ted

My Spanish not so best is a 12 Ga. Laurona SxS retailed by Sear & Roebuck, and is a spitting image of the Winchester Model 22 Laurona made, except it has hand cut basket weave style checkering. It has the "Black Chrome" finish like the Model 22, even.

Wonder whether Winchester collectors are hot after those 22's. Not many of them made.

I had a Laurona OU that had the "twin single" trigger system, like the early Superposeds.

Kyrie, your first photo looks like a 4 Deluxe, except the receivers on those have a fancy back rather than straight back. It's my understanding that the XXV-BL is essentially a 4 Deluxe with 25" barrels and Churchill rib, and I've seen some of those. But they all had the fancy back receiver (scalloped). Engraving certainly looks the same as a 4 Deluxe.

Another view for Redoak, with the tool (nicer wood on the tool, than the gun!) the spare strikers, and the pins that go in the tool. I really like disc set strikers on a boxlock. More than once, I've witnessed guns with integral striker/tumblers fail, and it is an expensive and lengthy repair. Both guns were out for the season.




Best,
Ted

I have two of those Laurona O/U's with the double single triggers. One of them is a two barrel, two gauge set.
I think they are VERY underrated. Just like many of the Spanish names I believe there are good ones and bad ones, you just need to know which is which to pick a winner.
CHAZ

Maybe I'm being a little dense today but what is a twin single trigger?

Ithaca1

Sorry, but no.

The XXV-BL action is based on that of the discontinued model �Iberia II�. The Iberia has come and gone under one name or another since the 1960s, and when the new AyA was formed after the DIARM years it reappeared as the Yeoman. At this point in time the only gun that AyA catalogs that uses the old Iberia action appears to be the XXV-BL.

Not sure what Kyrie is talking about with XXV being a different action than the #4 Deluxe but all of the boxlocks currently built by AYA are the same mechanically speaking. The actions are, however, shaped and engraved differently.

#4 or 4/53. Simple scroll engraving with straight back action.


#4/53 Classic (from Cabelas) or 4/25 (from New England Custom Arms). Same straight back action as standard #4 but engraved with full coverage scroll (more continental style).


#4 XXV. Notice the same engraving as the 4/53. But with short barrels and Churchill rib.



AYA #4 Deluxe has a scalloped action with beaded fences and is engraved with more English style scroll.



#4 Round Action (available in US as the "Bournebrook"). Similar style engraving as 4/53, XXV, and 4/53 but is fully hand-engraved and over a rounded body.



#4 Ovis Uplander. Again same engraving as 4/53 and XXV but with same action shape as the deluxe (with a scalloped action and beaded fences).

Adam,
Thanks for the nice overview.
Regards,
Jeff

As far as I know, AyA uses the same A&D action for all their BL guns. Just different engraving and shaping as Adam said.

Adam is correct that all of the box lock guns built by today�s AYA, today, use the same action.

That said the XXV-BL, as created and produced by the original AyA, was based on the model Iberia. This is a XXV-BL from 1968:





Here is a catalog entry for the Iberia:



That�s the genesis of the XXV-BL.

The post DIARM AyA is a much smaller and much simpler operation than the original AyA. They are unable to offer the different actions that were available from the original AyA and that why we�re now seeing the same action on all the box locks.
[i][/i]

So is the XXV BLE based on the "old Iberia" action as you stated above or not? Later you agreed with Adam that today's AyA BL actions are the same. Which of your statements is correct?

Two triggers, but, the front trigger will fire the right barrel first, and then the second. It is kind of a neat setup. I'm not sure how many makers offered it, but, for sure, the Laronas, Browning Superposed (early in the game) and, R model Darnes.

Best,
Ted

Ted,
The rear trigger still fires the left barrel if pulled first? The front acts like a non selective single trigger?

Ithaca1

I think that the double single trigger is the best of both worlds.

The front triggers fires the right (or bottom) barrel first, but functions as a single trigger also, second pull fires the second barrel. Rear trigger fires the left barrel (or top barrel) first but also functions as a single trigger and on the second pull fires the other barrel. The triggers on my gun are set by recoil.

Other than doubling during the "WD40 as gun cleaner" era (quick soak in gas fixed that) the triggers on my gun have never given me any problem. When I had the action on one of the guns reblacked I (and the smith) assumed it would be intricate, but he said they were very easy to work with.

CHAZ

You say you agree but this post suggest otherwise. Seems to me like you're talking in present term here. So you're suggesting the XXV is a different action from the rest of the boxlocks still today?

Besides, they are the still the same basic design... One has pins and one has screws... But both are Anson & Deeley type box locks.

Adam

Adam,

You are correct. I was obviously not clear in my own mind whether I was referring to the origin of the XXV-BL or the XXV-BL as it is built today, and that lack of clarity is embarrassing present in what I wrote.

So, let�s try this again.

The action used in the AyA XXV-BL when it was first brought to market was the Iberia. The old, and now defunct, AyA appears to have continued to use the Iberia type of action in the XXV-BL shotguns they made.

The present day AyA no longer uses the Iberia action for the XXV-BL, and at present time uses the same action in all the box lock guns they produce.

That give you any heartburn?

Thanks for the explanation, I was a little lost too.

I can say from experience that at least some of the Czech Brno shotguns used a similar system. I had one of these:





and found the rear trigger would act as a single non-selective trigger.

Interesting, as far as the "twin single trigger". AyA made a copy (or at least very similar) of the Winchester 21 at one time for Sears, sold under the "J C Higgins" label. I can't remember the model number off the top of my head. (Model 100?) I know someone who has one. Does anyone know if they had that trigger? They're having doubling issues, I'm wondering if it's due to the "WD-40" issue. I can't remember if their gun has one or two triggers.

After a little research, it appears the gun has a single trigger, so the twin single trigger wouldn't apply. Anyone have any insights about the doubling issue?

Regards
Ken

If one is looking for good quality older Spanish knockabout double BL or BLE I would suggest maker Aguirre & Aranzabal. It is easy to pick a good one just be examining metal to metal, wood to metal fit and quality of checkering. There are the best pics for newbies into inexpensive older vintage Spanish gun market. My sample gun was one that came from Marlin R&D department and was originally imported by company from Washington DC. It was SNST sporting gun of abut 7.5lb weight. It was unusual in that one could pull trigger with gun disassembled and put it back together with ease not worrying about re-cocking the hammers. I should not have sold that gun.

Very cool.
I was explaining to my business partner what a release trigger was a couple of months ago. Can't wait to tell him about this one.

If one wants ugly yet hellishly strong firearm Czech, Hungarian, Russian and Yugoslavian double are a good way to go. I call them Warthogs. I should mention Soviets also made very fine SLE based on Beesley patterned "self-opening" action.

This being Spanish topic I have a dream of on e day owning fine Ignacio Ugartechea SLE "self-opener" based on Fredies action with Bohler steel barrels. I determined that if I ever buy another shotgun it will be something truly to behold. No more 'nice gun for the money' stuff. I want the best.

Re Kyrie's reference to "the old AyA": They did indeed do some neat and different stuff. Undoubtedly the most unique AyA I ever owned was a 16ga marked AyA-Sauer. (AyA must have cut some sort of deal with Sauer to make those guns.) Looked for all the world like a high grade Sauer boxlock. Scalloped receiver, cocking indicators (on the sides rather than the "snail's ears" on top), a lot of engraving. DT/PG/cheekpiece/sling swivels. Slight Schnabel to the forend. Looked to me as if it was made for the German market with those features.

I don't believe they were so much copies but rather they were built to compete directly with the 21. I think they even placed them side by side in some of the old mail ordee catalogs. You got the model right... JC Higgins 100. They had beavertail forends, pistol grips, and non selective single triggers. Nice guns.... Nothing fancy but great quality. I miss mine. And I missed out on a nice 20ga model recently. I called just a few minutes after it sold.

Adam

Another "Sleeper" is Zastava, as far as field-grade A&D boxlocks. In now what is Serbia. Zastava was set up by a group of German investors, as I understand FN was. The few I've handled were very well made, and reminded me of typical German field-grade guns. There's more of them popping up now. Aesthetically, they look and feel better than the other Eastern-European types.

Kyrie,
If I had owned that gun, I wouldn't have put pictures up for everyone to see! Was it Lenin who said "Best, is the enemy of good enough"? That thing takes good enough to a whole different level.
Much like riding a moped or a really fat woman, it could be fun to try, but, don't let your friends catch you doing it.
Your tastes, have evolved very nicely. On the subject of shotguns, anyway.
Bravo.

Best,
Ted

It's funny you should say that; I bought the purely because it was the most ugly gun I'd ever seen.

It was also a cantankerous gun. The front trigger, and sometimes the rear trigger, would fire both barrels at once. It took two trips to the gun smith to fix that problem. It's amazing what two ounces of shot will do to a clay. The trapper just looked at the floating cloud of dust and said, "We won't bother to cook that one. We'll just spread it on toast."

I had one of those in 16 gauge. Talk about a tank. The steel was a vanadium alloy and just tough beyond description. The 16 gauge I bought had insufficient headspace for SAAMI shells and getting a tiny increase to SAAMI minimum had my gun smith swearing and sweating.

An AYA 400E from the early 60s. I picked it up with lots of provenance from a retired man of the cloth who served on the estates of Lord Amherst in northeast England. It may not be a best gun but the stories the old man related were among the best - faith old labs, tough shots, invitations to formal shoots. Shoots at which literally hundreds of hare were taken off the estate so bird populations could flourish.

I doubt the hare could tell it wasn't a best gun. I had my English sidelock experience, and it soured me on the guns. There is much to be said for the generic A & D patent boxlock, it goes a long way toward frustrating Murphy's law.
There is also much to be said for a gun that doesn't go to the 'smith until it breaks, as opposed to one that goes in every year for service.

Best,
Ted

Ted, the Brits look at guns the same way we look at vehicles: preventive maintenance. You can also run a car until it breaks, but you're likely to get more miles out of it through regular service. The wealthy class were also putting a lot of rounds through their guns on those driven shoots. Shells that we wouldn't consider all that heavy, but considering the relatively light weight of English game guns, there's likely to be some wear and tear. (Those loads are "hotter" in terms of shot charge and velocity relative to gun weight than are the ones target shooters run through guns weighing a couple pounds more.) The standard Brit game gun, prior to the change in the proof laws in 1954, was a 2 1/2" 12 bore weighing around 6 1/2#, give or take a little, with a designated service load of 1 1/8 oz. Not unlike the loads used by trap shooters . . . but their guns weigh around 25% more than that.

The sidelock has much more in the way of moving parts, Larry, and needs more maintenance. I'd bet those "keeper's guns" we see from time to time didn't get that maintenance, either. A lot of still functioning boxlocks in that catagory.
I got a sidelock that was just worn out. And, I still see lots of them, in that same condition, on websites and in dealers rack's, today.
I guess if I had been a newly minted English officer, in the India Corps, circa 1906 or so, I know which design I would have picked for that duty.

Best,
Ted

The sidelocks, and for that matter boxlock pairs (obviously made for driven shooting) often got much heavier use, in terms of rounds fired, than a keeper's gun. Not at all unusual to go through 100+ shells in a day on a 250-300 bird driven day. And back when Ripon was shooting, a lot of the driven days were bigger than that. So one heck of a lot of shooting over the course of the season, for those who were serious about it. That's why the preventive maintenance was a particularly good idea. You might not need to change your oil if you only drive your car 5,000 miles in a year. Probably a good idea if you drive it 50,000 miles a year.

But if the preventive maintenance wasn't done . . . easy to see how one can run across a worn-out gun, if it was used for volume shooting.

I�ve been following this thread concerning the necessity of yearly preventative maintenance for (presumably English) side lock guns with interest and some incredulity.

Spaniards rarely even clean the bores of their guns once a year, much less take them back to the maker for a yearly PM. The guns get used and put up, used and put up, until the original owner is too old for the field at which point they are handed down to the next generation. Eventually someone breaks a firing pin and has it replaced, or a hinge pin becomes sufficiently worn that it needs to be turned, but PM just isn�t in the picture. Guns can go forty or fifty years and never have the side plates removed.

I�ve seen any number of discussions of English shotguns in the forums of Spanish hunters/shooters, and the beauty of the top end English is highly praised, but their lack of durability is spoken of with a kind of sorrow. I�d always taken the former at face value and doubted the latter. The English hunters/shooters I�ve corresponded with over the years have not mentioned any great need for maintenance of their guns (English or otherwise) or of a short service life without such maintenance. But this thread has made me wonder if lack of durability of English shotguns spoken of in the forums of Spain should be given some credence.

So Kyrie, should we all trade in our delicate and such needy English guns for the more durable Spanish guns then? I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say?

Buzz,

I'm more asking a question than I am making a statement.

I'd never thought English guns to be any less durable than Spanish guns. But the impression I'm getting from Larry and Ted's exchange is that English guns need at least yearly maintenance to stay functional. That seems just passing strange to me and I'm asking, as politely as I can, if that's really the impression Larry and Ted wanted to give.

They don't need any more maintenance than any other gun. England is very rainy and their guns were exposed to gobs of moisture. They had them go in for yearly maintenance for that reason and primers were very corrosive. I'm pretty sure something along those lines is what Mr. Brown was referring to. I'm pretty sure that Spanish guns (which for the most part are copies of what the English produced) wouldn't fare any better in the same environmental conditions.

Vintage British shotguns are just as durable as any other gun made in the past as well as the present. I have several Brit guns that are well over 100 years old and they are still going strong. Both SL and BL. In fact they even look much younger than there age. This is due IMO of the preventive maintenance that the original and subsequent owners gave these guns. Also, the makers of these guns built these guns to last. Not just for the original owners but for generations. In this they succeeded in splendid fashion. Of course, there are some guns out there that are not taken care of, and these are the ones that fail, just like anything mechanical, parts do break. Re-read Col Browns post, he knows what he's talking about. Buzz also makes some great comments, all true.

If you don't take care of your guns, your the fool, NOT the maker. Instead of pointing fingers at a maker or country of origin, point them at the user.

As a side note on how the Spanish take care of their weapons, the German liaison staff to the Blue Division that fought with the Germans in Russia, were appalled on how the Spanish troops took care of their equipment. Not cleaning individual or crew served weapons was common place.

I would like to hear what our friends across the pond have to say on this subject.

Well Greg, I don't know how much better the Spanish troops performed, 20 years after the Rif War in Morocco--when they got their butts kicked severely by a bunch of mountain tribesmen. (Much like the Russkies in Afghanistan, except the Rifis didn't have the CIA shipping them modern weapons. Most of what they used, they captured from the Spanish.) Those Spanish soldiers were so poorly paid and poorly led--apparently their officers ripped off their pay--that they sold bullets to get by. Bad choice for them, because the Rifis were happy to acquire more bullets to use in the Spanish Mausers they captured.

I understand what you�re saying, but neither Ted nor Larry mentioned weather � they wrote only of what amounts to normal use causing a requirement for maintenance. Truth be told, a wet climate and/or corrosive primers only require immediate cleaning and proper storage. A yearly trip back to the maker isn�t going to help a gun used with corrosive primed ammo and put up wet.

Hey Col, in fact they fought very well. Most were vets of the Civil War and also volunteers, they had a hatred of the soviets that made them excellent fighters. They fought quite well, but the Germans complained about their lack of discipline behind the line or when things were "slow", but they admired them in both the offense and defense. The first Commander Gen Agust�n Mu�oz Grandes, was awarded the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross with Oakleaves (a very high decoration) for the actions of the men in the Blue Division. The soviets also respected them as fine fighters.

Best,

Greg

Kyrie, The corrosive primers over time tended to corrode the barrels. From what I've read, during this yearly maintenance barrels were sometimes freshened up, or honed out a bit. This is how we figured out that larger bores actually tend to produce better patterns. Plus, wealthy people back then wanted to make sure their guns would work flawlessly and were ready for the next season. High performance, high maintenance was the sentiment. I doubt if Englishmen take their guns in for yearly maintenance in this day and age. Maybe they will pipe in and let us know? Best, Buzz

Kyrie, the guns built for driven shooting--basically sidelock (but also boxlock) pairs--got used hard in England. I know the Spanish have driven shooting as well, but I'm not sure that it's on the scale it was in England, during the late 19th/early 20th century in particular. The Prince of Wales (later Edward VII) waited a LONG time to ascend to the throne (much like Prince Charles today--in both cases waiting for old ladies to die). While in waiting, his two primary interests were driven shooting and chasing women. The titled and wealthy class wanted nothing more than to be able to entertain him in style, whether it involved women or birds. Consequently, the "in" thing to do was to offer driven shooting, attend someone else's driven shoot, etc etc. Some of the "big shots", like Ripon, did little else during bird season--and amassed enormous totals in their game books. Their guns were cleaned regularly by the gamekeepers and their underlings. But when the season was over, back they went to Purdey's or H&H or Boss or whomever, for a "tuneup" and more detailed maintenance. (On the driven shoots I've participated in, one of the perks is that the gamekeeper cleans my gun every day--and does a nice job of it). They did that because they had the money, and they thought it was the proper thing to do. And because the famous makers liked to be able to say that they had the Duke of such and such, or earl, or viscount or whatever, as one of their customers. Good advertising! I have no idea how necessary it was, given that all those great estates had platoons of servants, some of whom took care of the game and the guns. But that's what they did. And as mentioned, it is a pretty wet climate. Thus a good idea to make sure things don't rust. Especially things as valuable as a pair of British bests--after which, of course, the Spanish patterned their own side by sides.

Americans tend to complain about finding an older Brit gun in truly "original" condition. Because the stock may have been redone, checkering recut, barrels reblacked, etc. Well, in contrast, American "bests"--meaning the very top grades produced by Parker, LC Smith, Fox, Ithaca, Lefever, etc--in general, didn't get used that hard. It was the very basic, entry level guns that tended to see hard use. Thus, in terms of %, you're going to find more high grade Parkers in really nice original shape than you are Trojans or V's. That's because the owners of the really nice ones, for the most part, weren't engaging in the kind of volume shooting done with driven bird guns. And they (or perhaps their employees, although less likely than with the Brits) took good care of those guns. And would also send them back to the factory if the gun needed some work.l The Trojans and V's, in contrast, might have belonged to someone shooting birds for the market. Or to a farmer who considered the gun a tool, and only gave it very basic maintenance. Often rode hard and put away wet--and expected to keep working in spite of that. And they usually did. But they also usually show a lot of wear, tear, and just plain neglect. And if something broke, it likely got fixed by the local shade tree gunsmith.

That's the difference, as best I can explain it.

Let�s not forget the British had their heads handed to them by the Afghans (bunch of mountain tribesmen) and by the Boers (bunch of Dutch farmers).

Anyone want to talk about Viet Nam?

There is more than enough defeat in history to go around.

Let�s get back to the subject at hand.

I have a number of friends and acquaintances in GB that hunt/shoot, and have never heard from them that their guns need the level of maintenance Larry and Ted have discussed. While I am disinterested in English shotguns, I have, and have had, a number of British rifles (I have an 1890 Martini, with bayonet, that was used in both the first and second Boer war over the fireplace) and pistols and have not found any to be delicate.