doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Spanish "Not so Best".

The Spanish gun makers have a long history of producing very fine, and very expensive, box lock shotguns. The only two makers I know of that still catalog a box lock are AyA and Ugartechea, and only AyA catalogs a truly top end box lock in the XXV-BL:



Back before the great crisis the gun makers went through in the 1980s just about all the makers offered top end box lock guns, with full coverage engraving, including medium and deep relief engraving. Garbi, Grulla, Francisco Sarriugarte, Joaqu�n Fern�ndez, Eduardo Schilling, et. al. offered box lock guns that that ran from impressive to just stunning.

Here is a Ugartechea from the 1950s:






Francisco Sarriugarte, ornate engraving with gold inlay:



I�ve seen Spanish box lock guns with extensive damascene engraving, deep relief game scenes, even inlay done in platinum. These guns are rare, just as top end side lock guns are rare, and for the same reason; not many could afford to have one made.

Kyrie: Have you ever seen the AyA Bournebrook?

Here's my Uggie boxlock.

Yep! Pretty gun, no?

Ken61,

Striking gun - thanks for sharing!

Kyrie,
I over simplified a bit in my analysis I suppose, and I'm sorry about that. My point was that when the A and D boxlock came along in England, it took a bit for the market to sort out which would be the best. To that end, gunmakers did indeed finish boxlocks to the same level as sidelocks, and a few, priced their boxlocks actually higher than their sidelock guns-Greener, for example, with the Facile Princepts.
I'll let others debate what makes either design "best" but, one can find English boxlocks from the era I am speaking of that have chopper lump barrels, dropper points in the stock, church windows, a scalloped action back, and intercepting sears. The engraving and finish would have been equal or superior to the same companies sidelock model.
It seems to me that by the time the A and D patents had expired, and the Spanish invoked the sincerest form of flattery, the market in England had decided which version was the best, and would thus be the most expensive gun they produced, or, the only design they would produce.
And the Spanish took those lessons, and ran.
Now, a question, if I may?
Was there ever a time when a boxlock was AYAs, or some other gun makers, most expensive gun to buy in Spain? That did happen in England. Was there ever a Spanish boxlock that included all the features I named above, and sold for more money than the companies top of the line sidelock, to the best of your knowledge?

Best,
Ted

PS Not to be too critical, but, the gold inlays on the gun you posted are not to my liking, not to mention whatever is going on with the floorplate not fitting up. Gamescene is a difficult task master, and few humans have ever mastered that art form. Just my opinion.
I do like Winston Churchill's inlay work. I won't be buying any of it, any time soon, however.

Ted,

I think we may have several sub-threads emerging here :-)



In terms of producing box lock guns with engraving/finish equal to that on the same company�s side lock guns, the Spanish went down that same road. Looking back on the catalogs from the first half of the twentieth century many makers offered side lock and box lock guns with the same engraving pattern on each type of gun, modified as needed to fit the smaller engraving area of the box lock.



I don�t think the question can be answered as asked. Going back into the 1920s to about the 1950s, I could walk into any gun maker that offered both box lock guns and side lock guns, order a base model box lock, and add enough options to make that base model box lock more expensive than the top side lock, as cataloged.

(Aside: Hmmm� I could probably do that today at, say, AyA by ordering a 28 gauge N 4/53 with a really elaborate engraving pattern from the 1950s, extra barrels in .410 and 32 gauge, and adding a H&H assisted opener.)

In terms of the type of barrels, I�d have been offered a choice that included chopper lump, monoblock, and a possible a few other options. Secondary sears were pretty much standard but could be omitted on request. Action shape (straight, scalloped in any of several styles) was to customer choice. I don�t know what dropper points or church windows are.

Have I misunderstood the question?

Here is an auction for an AyA No. 2:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=473115624

The No. 2 is the �affordable� version of the No. 1. A part of what makes the No. 2 affordable is the engraving isn�t hand cut � it�s either roll marked (i.e. stamped) or etched into the metal via laser. The gun above has the lock �engraving� stamped into the metal via roll marking. Take a close look at the �engraving� around the cocking indicators and notice it�s off center.

Kyrie,
If you walked into Greener's prior to the turn of the last century, and asked what his top model was, it was a boxlock. Some years later, that particular model of boxlock was gone, and the top model was a sidelock. He would, at that later time, build you a straight A&D boxlock, that cost less money than either the sidelock, or the Facile Princeps boxlock.
What I am asking is, was that ever the case in Spain? Was there a company that had, as it's most expensive model, a boxlock over the same companys sidelock?
Options don't really enter the picture. Neither does a base model boxlock, as that isn't what we are after. A few of the English makers believed the boxlock was the next, best thing, and built them as their top of the line gun for some time. Then, that time ended, (except, maybe, at Westley Richards) and the sidelock was the top dog, again.

Oh, the #2 you linked to has drop points in the stock-they are those stylish teardrop shaped carvings to the wood behind the lock plate. Good, English boxlocks from the era I'm alluding to do as well. Church windows refer to checkering that is in the area where the wood meets the back of the action on a boxlock. Very high grade American boxlocks will be seen with this treatment on occasion (think higher grade Parkers and Foxes) as will best work English boxlocks. I think it looks best with a sculpted action back. A very well fitted sculpted action back, by the way. I've never seen a Spanish boxlock with the pins installed for intercepting sears, but, the English did that on their best boxlocks.

What say ye, Kyrie?

Best,
Ted

I don�t know that the question can be answered as asked. Spanish gun makers didn�t produce just a single box lock and a single side lock. They produced (and still produce) a range of side lock guns. Back in the day when the makers all produced box lock guns too, they produced a range of box locks.

In those cases when a maker made a box lock and a side lock version of the same gun, the side lock always had a higher cost to make and consequently a higher price point at sale. That was just a function of the side lock having more space that had to be engraved.

If we want to get into an apples and oranges comparison, it was not unusual for a maker�s most ornate box lock to cost more to produce � and sell at a higher price � than the maker�s most basic side lock. And his most ornate side lock was always more expensive than his most basic box lock.

I know very little about the English gun trade and its business models, but based on the sense of how it worked I�m getting from your questions, I�d have to say the Spanish makers went about things very differently.

If you asked a Spanish gun maker what his �top model� was he would not know what you meant. He might open a catalog and point to the model that sells the most guns in a year, or to the model with the top price point, or just ask you �top model for what?� Spanish shotguns are purpose built, and the "top model" for live pigeon would be different from the "top model" for driven birds, which would be different from the "top model" for fur and feather hunting.


Ah! That�s what you meant. Drop points I know, it was your reference to �dropping points� that lost me. The Spanish gun makers view drop points as an affectation almost as bad as gold plated lock parts. They will happily put drop points to a stocks if that�s what a customer wants, but they aren�t happy with it or impressed by that customer.


Ah, so that what those things are called.


Again, the Spanish view diverges. It�s rare to find �Church windows� on a Spanish box lock; they are thought to be decidedly lower class. I think the only Spanish box locks I�ve seen with church windows were some inexpensive Zabala Hermanos guns brought into the States just before Zabala closed, and an Armas Erbi hardware store gun made back in the 1960s.


I�m not a box lock person and cannot comment from my own knowledge. That said, the guys I know who are Spanish box lock mad tell me secondary sears are more common than not on their box locks.

Best,