doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Spanish "Not so Best".

Or, maybe Kyrie's spending the time trying to find that Spanish gun that isn't an English copy. ;-)

Well, I think this thread has run its course. It seems someone got mad, picked up his marbles and went home.

But, he'll be back!

Take care all!

Greg

No Larry, I have clearly been talking about both now and pre-civil war Spain.


Several.


Yes.


Yes. And the Spanish guns would still pass current C.I.P. proof. Did you follow the earlier thread about all the British guns failing proof now that the British proof houses have begun to actually implement C.I.P. proof? How many of those pre-WWII (much less pre-WWI) guns do you think would actually pass proof today?


Utter nonsense. Without two equally complete and detailed 125 year long records of use you have no idea what conditions two guns experienced and no hope of comparing the two guns. I have a very few guns where I've talked with descendents of the original owner and know quite a bit about what it was used for and how much of that use the guns had. Without that kind of provenance you have little idea what, if any use a gun has had or whether any gun I have had less, similar, or more use.


Irrelevant. The subject was British light game guns, which are defined by their relative light weight for their chambering. These are typically SxS guns chambered for the 12 gauge, 2.75 inch shell and weighing no more than 6.75 pounds, or chambered for the 2.5 inch 12 gauge shell and weighing no more than 6.5 pounds, or chamber for the 2 inch 12 gauge shell and weighing no more than 6.25 pounds. Type of action isn�t a part of the definition and doesn�t matter.

Spanish gun makers (especially AyA) can and do make light game guns for the English trade, but the that�s small change to their bread and butter gun, which is a European medium game gun (an approximately seven pound 12 gauge with 2.75 inch chambers). The demand for British light game guns is tiny, and only AyA has bothered to cater to it.

I understand, and concur.


If you decide to take the plunge let me know what you are looking for and a price range and I�ll keep an eye out for something that fits the bill.

Nope. Unlike some folks here I work for a living.

And if you think driven bird shooting is hard on a gun you ain�t seen nothing. Try looking at guns that have been on the live pigeon circuit. Those guns go on driven hunts for a rest :-)

He's back!

A bit of a slap in the face IMO! Lets set the record straight here. Larry Brown is Retired from the US Army (as a full Colonel) he also has written a book and publishes articles for several major gun magazines every month. Can we have a list of your published articles/works? He knows what he's talking about when it comes to Brit guns, you yourself have stated that you have no interest in Brit guns, yet, you sure have an opinion on them. It's becoming quite clear that if someone does not agree with every word you utter, they're some kind of neanderthal. Case in point, you won't admit that Spanish gunmakers copied English game gun, all you do is toss out weights, chamber lengths etc. but you sure make condescending remarks to those that state this simple truth. The fact is the Spanish copied the English, not the other way around. And yes pigeon guns are different than game guns, so your comment in your own words is irrelevant

Kyrie, you're wandering around in the wilderness. Live pigeon guns ain't driven game guns. They're a whole bunch heavier. Horses for courses, as they say. (Likewise, the specialty guns for very high driven birds are also longer, heavier, more like sporting clays guns.)

Just to clarify, pre-Civil War Spain is almost WWII. What was going on in the way of driven shooting in Spain between, say, 1870-1914? What guns were they shooting? If the Spanish makers were producing guns in any kind of numbers in those days--or, for that matter, between the wars--why do we see so few of them in this country? (Make that almost none, if we're talking pre-
WWI production.) In contrast, there are THOUSANDS of between the wars Brit game guns still seeing regular use in this country and the UK; for that matter, THOUSANDS of pre-WWI Brit game guns as well. Where are all those old Spaniards? Did many of them exist at all, or have most of them fallen to pieces from the hard use--perhaps combined with a lack of periodic maintenance?

I look at the inventories of the major doublegun dealers in this country, and I have no problem finding older German guns, older Belgian guns, older French guns. Rare to find a pre-WWII Spanish gun, although lots of postwar ones. To paraphrase the late Pete Seeger: Where have all those old Spanish guns gone? Gone to graveyards every one?

As for passing proof, the only way to know for sure is to submit the gun for proof. Otherwise you're whistling in the dark. Which reminds me of the modern Spanish 28ga from one of their best makers which passed Spanish proof with a thin spot of .014 in one barrel. Blew the barrel with a standard 28ga target load, injuring the shooter.

When we compare guns, we don't go by weight. We go by design. The fact is, the Spanish copied Brit designs, like the Holland sidelock and the A&D boxlock. All they did was make them somewhat fatter in many cases, especially 12's. Bravo for them. The Brits themselves did the same thing, long before the
Spanish ever thought of it. You can make a pigeon gun or a wildfowl gun based on the Holland sidelock or the A&D boxlock, just as easily as you can make a game gun based on those designs.

And by the way, if you find a 2" 12ga that weighs 6 1/4, it ain't gonna be British. It will be Spanish. I've seen a couple Spanish 2" guns (with 850 bar proof) that weigh over 6. Most of the Brit 2" guns I've seen are down around 5 1/2. Some less than that. That was part of the idea behind the 2" 12: Lighter gun, lighter shot charge, basically for women and youngsters. But some grouse hunters on this side of the pond like the idea also.

I am not a Spanish gun expert, but there is a bit of history on this subject in the book, �Spanish Best, The Fine Shotguns of Spain�, by Terry Wieland.

From what is written in his book, it seems that the Basques started to become influenced by the English gunmakers sometime following the Napoleonic Peninsular War. It began with the discovery of quality Spanish steel gun barrels by English Officers and their London gunmakers, which in turn later created a trade in Spanish iron ore and English coal between the two countries. Following this, it appears the real emulation of English gunmaking started in earnest during the early 1900�s through King Alphonso XIII of Spain and his enthusiasm for English guns and shooting sports. The King became a real fan of James Purdey & Sons gunmaking and so patronized them heavily. As such, the Spanish gunmakers starting with Victor Sarasqueta (whom was appointed Royal Gunmaker to the King in 1902), began to copy the style of the Purdey guns for the King. �That Alfonso XIII was a dedicated lover of Purdey guns does not mean that he neglected the gunmakers of Spain. In Eibar, the Basque gunmakers were flourishing amid Spain�s enthusiastic pursuit of the shooting sports, and none more so than Victor Sarasqueta. ..... From that time [1902] until Alfonso�s fall from power [1931], Sarasqueta was the king�s favourite Basque gunmaker, and the Basque guns (all modeled after Purdeys) resided in the royal gun cabinets alongside the Purdeys that Alfonso put to such good use.� Source: Spanish Best, The Fine Shotguns of Spain, by Terry Wieland, published 2001, Pg. 29.

Pigeon Shooting: Because live pigeon shooting was so very popular in England at the time [1903], King Alfonso XIII of Spain �approached Athol Purdey for help in founding a pigeon shooting club in Spain....By introducing live-pigeon shooting into Spain, King Alfonso XIII was setting a path for Spanish gunmaking that continues to this day�..Demand for pigeon guns grew, and those who could not emulate the king by ordering Purdeys made up for it by patronizing the Basque gunmakers of Eibar. For their part, the gunmakers responded with enthusiasm, perfecting copies of the Purdey pigeon guns for their own less-well-heeled clientele."

Driven Shooting: �At the same time [1904], King Alfonso�s enjoyment and devotion to game shooting encouraged the Spaniards to emulate the British, and shooting driven red-legged partridge on vast estates of La Mancha became typically Spanish, just as shooting driven grouse defined the British upper classes.�

Source: Spanish Best, The Fine Shotguns of Spain, by Terry Wieland, published 2001, pgs. 19 -29.

Tim

Tim,
I'm not an expert with any gun design, but, there is something a little bit suspicious in the quotes from that book. If one is going to set about copying a design of English sidelock, the Holland & Holland sidelock, with Southgate ejectors, is the easier of the two to pull off. The Beasley patent Purdey self opener is much more difficult to get right. I'll let others argue about which design is superior, but, when one sees a well executed sidelock game gun copy (think current production Spanish or Miroku sidelock) there is good reason that it is the Holland design. Further, almost all of the makers out of Spain today tell you straight up in their catalog that their sidelock guns are paterned after the Holland design.
Why would they have changed, if they spent time and effort to get the Purdey/Beasley copy right?

Best,
Ted