doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Spanish "Not so Best".

Ted,

I'm not sure about when the Spanish started with the Holland and Holland design, but it may have been much later on with the King brothers in 1958. I believe they brought the two designs to Spain for AyA to develop for the English market, a Westley Richards boxlock, and a Holland and Holland sidelock.

Tim

It is true that there were some Purdey type designs made in Spain by AYA, Ugartechea, Victor Sarasqueta, and maybe others, but they were all built early on and are quite rare (and quite pricey when you can find them). Most build the H&H action because its easier to build.... whether its a better action is another debate.

I think what the book is referring to is more about style... shaping of the action, engraving, and so on. There are MANY more Spanish guns with Purdey style engraving than with H&H style engraving.

The English shooter (Kings Brothers and ASI in particular) really fine tuned the Spanish market to what it is today. They had them build guns the Brits would buy. So to say that Spanish are not copying the English is just insane!

I think with the way things are going with pricing on Spanish guns, its only a matter of time before some goes to Turkey to "fine-tune" their gunmakers just like they did in Spain. There are capable of building the guns... but need a little help on the fine details. When that happens, Turkey will take over the "afforable fine gun" market that Spain has owned for decades. Turkeys is getting close, but they're not quite there.... but it won't be long.

Adam

So, if we have Spanish copies of the Beasley/Purdey, even very old ones, are they self openers? Does anyone have clear pictures of a Spanish copy of that design, with the locks off?
I'd love to see one.

Best,
Ted

There have certainly been Spanish copies of the Beesley/Purdey design. Urgartechea made a model 1040 in the 1930s. They are very scarce.

AyA made a model Senior between about 1979 and 1987. Approximately 40 were made, including several pairs, a trio - and a set of 6. All but one (a 16 bore) were 12 bores. All (except one) had best Purdey style rose and scroll engraving, straight hand stocks and double triggers. The 'odd man out' had a pistol grip and single (non selective) trigger and is now in my possession.
Actions were true Beesley self opening and the ejectors were also the Purdey style (not Southgate). There is some information in this article on AyA's own website http://www.aya-fineguns.com/historia_en....nuestros%20dias about half way down.
AyA also made guns with a Purdey type sidelock, but lever cocked and without the Beesley style self opening. These were made I believe in the 1950s or 1960s. I have only ever seen one and they are also very scarce.

Larry,

I may well be in the wilderness, but you sir as so caught in a bubble confined to England that the rest of the world seems unknown to you. You are like the fellow who has only a hammer and sees nothing but nails.

By your logic the Spanish use of locks derived from the H&H lock makes the Spanish guns copies of English shotguns. By the same logic Beretta�s use of the locking and take down system of the Walther P.38 makes Berettas copies of German pistols . Further, since the Walther model PP uses a variation of the S&W passive hammer block to keep the hammer off the firing pin when the hammer is down, so by your logic Walthers are copies of American revolvers.

All modern firearms have adopted mechanical designs from earlier, successful, firearms, making them derivatives of those earlier guns � not copies.

The Spanish shotguns that are copies of English light game guns are those AyA guns intentionally produced for the English market (the No. 1, No, 2, and XXV), and what makes these guns copies of English light game guns is the weight restrictions within which they are made.

You wouldn�t have to ask why we see so few older Spanish shotguns compared to the relatively large number of older English, German, French, and Belgium guns, if you spent a little more time outside of your British bubble reading some recent history.

Germany, France, and Belgium have been periodically stripped of sporting firearms of all kinds by war, socialist governments, and US importers who served at the market of last resort. British shotgun owners were historically of that upper class that effectively no longer exists in England, having been crushed by war debt, poor economic policy, and increasingly socialist governments that have taxed the landed gentry largely out of existence. We have their shotguns here in the USA because the English have had to sell them to make tax payments.

None of this was true of Spain. Twentieth century Spain was never the battleground for a World War, was never invaded or conquered by a foreign power, and saw socialism rise only after the death of Franco. Spanish guns were never gathered up and sold in mass as was the case in Germany, France, and Belgium, and the Spanish were never forced to sell their fine, old guns to make tax payments.

You have somehow inflated the King's dealing with AyA alone to be the entire "Spanish market". That's beyond silly.

Ted,

Going as far back as about 1900 some Spanish gun makers offered a choice of between eight and fifteen different locks that were available for inclusion on whatever shotgun a customer may have ordered. Among these locks were four that were immediately recognizable as English designs, and these designs were Holland & Holland, Purdey, Vickers, and Boss. From circa 1900 to circa 1980 the number of different locks available for inclusion on new gun ordered dwindled, and I believe became limited to Holland & Holland locks (and derivatives) and Purdey locks circa 1980.

At least three Spanish makers offered shotguns with Purdey locks and Purdey self-opening actions. These gun makers were Victor Sarasqueta, Ignacio Ugartechea, and Aguirre y Aranzabal. I know these three made such guns because I�ve seen examples � my lack of observable examples from other makers does not mean such guns don�t exist.

JohnfromUK has one of the AyA guns and can likely provide photos.

Spanish side lock guns with Purdey lock only are not rare, but are quite expensive and seldom seem outside of Spain. The Spanish call these guns escopetas de llaves de 4 pilars (shotgun of lock of the four pillars).

PM sent.

AYA set a trend that ALL Spanish makers follow to this day. Your unwillingness to accept the blatant fact that the Spanish copied the English is almost comical!!!!!

Yep. That's what one can read in some of the gun rags, mostly quoting the King's and AyA's advertising. You're obviously easily led, and I wish you luck. You're going to spend a lot of money on guns that aren't what you think they are.

Adam, it's no use in even talking to this guy. He knows everything and is right about everything. Even when corrected, he won't admit it, because in his world, if you say it's night, he'll say it's day. It's his way or the highway pure and simple. Don't worry he'll have an opinion (all he'll be right of course) on Turk guns, just like English guns. I'm done with this thread, I can't take it anymore!

Best to you Adam