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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 497 Likes: 3
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 497 Likes: 3 |
Today, a Spanish best is typically modeled on the classic English game gun: It is a side-by-side sidelock with straight grip, splinter fore-end, and double triggers.
Tim, Ive quoted, above, only a section of your quotation from Spanish Best because I thought it was especially interesting in the context of this thread. As Im sure you know by now, Larry has his definition of an English light game gun (said definition centered on the gun having an A&D or H&H action), and I have my definition of an English light game gun (centered on the weight of the gun relative to its chambering). Now we have a third definition; a side-by-side sidelock with straight grip, splinter fore-end, and double triggers. Notice none of the three definitions agree :-)
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 168 Likes: 57
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 168 Likes: 57 |
Yes, very interesting. I would have thought Wieland's definition of a "best" gun should have also included a statement of being built to the highest standard of quality. Wouldn't that be an important aspect of a classic English Game gun?  Anyway, I'll give you Wieland's definition of a English Game Gun; "The British call their definitive shotgun a "game gun". The term differentiates a high quality gun from a "keepers gun", a waterfowling gun, or even a punt gun. While British shotguns come in every imaginable shape and size, the game gun is the standard from which the others deviate....In broad terms, a game gun can be described as follows: a 12 bore, with 28 inch barrels choked 1/4 and 1/2, double triggers, and a straight stock with minimal drop. It weighs from 6 1/4 to 6 3/4 pounds. It can be either sidelock or boxlock, but when picturing a game gun, most conjure a sidelock. The gun has 2 1/2-inch chambers and is proofed for a 1 1/16 ounce load. The gun will be regulated with #6 shot (the equilvalent of American #7) and will pattern best with that shot size and load....The game gun is intended primarily for shooting driven birds---red grouse, pheasant, partridge, woodcock---but is equally sound for birds flushing over dogs, walk up snipe, and flighting ducks. This is the standard pattern that evolved in Britain during the heyday of estate shooting, from 1890 to 1914....qualities the English sought in a gun can be summarized quite simply: Fine, responsive handling combined with reliability and extreme durability. Handling is a combination of weight and balance that ensures the gun comes to the shoulder, swings smoothly and shoots where you are looking. Reliability and durability are the result of a combination of the best basic materials and first-rate workmanship." Source: Vintage British Shotguns, by Terry Wieland, published 2008, pgs.47, 49. Boothroyd's definition of an English Game Gun; "The game gun has evolved over many years and today one would expect it to be double barrelled, hammerless, with selective ejectors, possibly a single trigger and an easy opening facility, and chambered for the standard 12 bore 2 1/2 inch cartridge. Weight would be around 6 1/2 pounds with 28 inch barrels.....In general the gun would have a standard English fore-end, not a beavertail, and...the preference would be for a straight hand and not a pistol grip. Engraving is not obtrusive, for the gun is intended for use and not display as a work of art; to allow room for such work it would be a sidelock rather than a boxlock. If we add a top lever operation and a tang automatic safety our ideal "best" English game gun is outlined....In describing the best game gun I have taken a number of things for granted: quality of raw materials, quality of workmanship and impeccable functioning both as to operation and quality of the pattern. The English game gun is perfection and this applies to "English" guns made in Scotland, Italy, Spain and elsewhere, providing that the makers stick rigidly to the standards." Source: Boothroyd on British Shotguns, by Geoffrey Boothroyd, published 1993, pgs. 90,92. Tim
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 534
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 534 |
None of this was true of Spain. Twentieth century Spain was never the battleground for a World War, was never invaded or conquered by a foreign power, and saw socialism rise only after the death of Franco. Spanish guns were never gathered up and sold in mass as was the case in Germany, France, and Belgium, and the Spanish were never forced to sell their fine, old guns to make tax payments.
Sadly, this statement shows an utterly complete ignorance of Spain's history... The truth is that Spain rose as a gun making trade through the extremely low wages which were the norm after WWII, when Spain was almost completely isolated under Franco's dictatorship. My parents used to cross Spain by car in the early 60's. Top-end hotels and restaurants were dirt cheap and roads were horrible, equivalent to 1920's Europe. Spain was starving for foreign currency. The economy was dismal. As for Spanish guns, I have yet to see any that would have a top class workmanship. The best Belgian guns (Cordy, Thonon, Lebeau, Francotte, etc.) are far, far better than the best Spanish IMHO. The same is true for best French (Granger, etc.) or Austrian (Springer et al.). That's why you can buy them used for a fraction of the cost of their competitors. E.g. there is no free lunch. Best regards, WC-
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 497 Likes: 3
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 497 Likes: 3 |
None of this was true of Spain. Twentieth century Spain was never the battleground for a World War, was never invaded or conquered by a foreign power, and saw socialism rise only after the death of Franco. Spanish guns were never gathered up and sold in mass as was the case in Germany, France, and Belgium, and the Spanish were never forced to sell their fine, old guns to make tax payments.
Sadly, this statement shows an utterly complete ignorance of Spain's history... The truth is that Spain rose as a gun making trade through the extremely low wages which were the norm after WWII, when Spain was almost completely isolated under Franco's dictatorship. --- snip --- The Spanish gun making trade that you assert rose after World War II (1945) was flourishing in the 1880s. If there is ignorance of the history of gun making in Spain, I think you have just made a stab at claiming title.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 497 Likes: 3
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 497 Likes: 3 |
Yes, very interesting. I would have thought Wieland's definition of a "best" gun should have also included a statement of being built to the highest standard of quality. Wouldn't that be an important aspect of a classic English Game gun? Anyway, I'll give you Wieland's definition of a English Game Gun; "The British call their definitive shotgun a "game gun". The term differentiates a high quality gun from a "keepers gun", a waterfowling gun, or even a punt gun. While British shotguns come in every imaginable shape and size, the game gun is the standard from which the others deviate....In broad terms, a game gun can be described as follows: a 12 bore, with 28 inch barrels choked 1/4 and 1/2, double triggers, and a straight stock with minimal drop. It weighs from 6 1/4 to 6 3/4 pounds. It can be either sidelock or boxlock, but when picturing a game gun, most conjure a sidelock. The gun has 2 1/2-inch chambers and is proofed for a 1 1/16 ounce load. The gun will be regulated with #6 shot (the equilvalent of American #7) and will pattern best with that shot size and load....The game gun is intended primarily for shooting driven birds---red grouse, pheasant, partridge, woodcock---but is equally sound for birds flushing over dogs, walk up snipe, and flighting ducks. This is the standard pattern that evolved in Britain during the heyday of estate shooting, from 1890 to 1914....qualities the English sought in a gun can be summarized quite simply: Fine, responsive handling combined with reliability and extreme durability. Handling is a combination of weight and balance that ensures the gun comes to the shoulder, swings smoothly and shoots where you are looking. Reliability and durability are the result of a combination of the best basic materials and first-rate workmanship." Source: Vintage British Shotguns, by Terry Wieland, published 2008, pgs.47, 49. Boothroyd's definition of an English Game Gun; "The game gun has evolved over many years and today one would expect it to be double barrelled, hammerless, with selective ejectors, possibly a single trigger and an easy opening facility, and chambered for the standard 12 bore 2 1/2 inch cartridge. Weight would be around 6 1/2 pounds with 28 inch barrels.....In general the gun would have a standard English fore-end, not a beavertail, and...the preference would be for a straight hand and not a pistol grip. Engraving is not obtrusive, for the gun is intended for use and not display as a work of art; to allow room for such work it would be a sidelock rather than a boxlock. If we add a top lever operation and a tang automatic safety our ideal "best" English game gun is outlined....In describing the best game gun I have taken a number of things for granted: quality of raw materials, quality of workmanship and impeccable functioning both as to operation and quality of the pattern. The English game gun is perfection and this applies to "English" guns made in Scotland, Italy, Spain and elsewhere, providing that the makers stick rigidly to the standards." Source: Boothroyd on British Shotguns, by Geoffrey Boothroyd, published 1993, pgs. 90,92. Tim Tim, I think we could get three definitions of "English game Gun" by asking any two people :-) This kind of thing (a failure to agree on some common working definition) is why we have such long winded,and sometimes acrimonious, discussions. They all come to nothing in the end but can be a lot of fun as they happen - lol
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,174
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,174 |
None of this was true of Spain. Twentieth century Spain was never the battleground for a World War, was never invaded or conquered by a foreign power, and saw socialism rise only after the death of Franco. Spanish guns were never gathered up and sold in mass as was the case in Germany, France, and Belgium, and the Spanish were never forced to sell their fine, old guns to make tax payments.
Sadly, this statement shows an utterly complete ignorance of Spain's history... The truth is that Spain rose as a gun making trade through the extremely low wages which were the norm after WWII, when Spain was almost completely isolated under Franco's dictatorship. --- snip --- The Spanish gun making trade that you assert rose after World War II (1945) was flourishing in the 1880s. If there is ignorance of the history of gun making in Spain, I think you have just made a stab at claiming title. I know I said I was done but I lied... like Kyrie said, it may be pointless, but its fun. You say the Spanish gun trade was "flourishing" in the 1880s.... if that's true, where are all of the shotguns that were produced? I see them nowhere. Not here in the states, not in the U.K., not in Spain, and not in the rest of the Europe. That's because the Spanish gun trade didn't really "flourish" until later. It wasn't until after WWII that Spain became a major player in the SXS market. That's when production really kicked up. Before that, it was quite limited. Prove me wrong, please.
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,174
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,174 |
Also, going back to whether or not the Spanish copy the English.... ever notice the names of the shotgun from Grulla? Royal Purdey (refering to Purdey of England) http://www.grullaarmas.com/en/catalogo-grulla/183-royal-purdey-2Royal Holland (referring to Holland & Holland of England) http://www.grullaarmas.com/en/catalogo-grulla/182-royal-holland-2Royal Churchill (referring to Churchill of England) http://www.grullaarmas.com/en/catalogo-grulla/181-royal-churchill-2Celtic (referring to Scotland/Ireland/Wales) http://www.grullaarmas.com/en/catalogo-grulla/178-celtic-2Consort (referring to the English monarchy, i.e. "queen consort, king consort, prince consort, etc) http://www.grullaarmas.com/en/catalogo-grulla/179-consort-2Windsor (as in Windor, England... maybe Windsor Castle... all in Southern England, an area known for game shooting. http://www.grullaarmas.com/en/catalogo-grulla/185-windsor-2Here is a quote from AYA's website about their flagship model, the #1 sidelock.... "The AYA N 1 has been the flagship of the AYA line since its introduction in the late 1950s. Modeled closely on the classic Holland & Holland-style sidelock, the N 1 has every hallmark of the traditional English double: Purdey-type double underlugs, chopper-lump barrels, detachable locks, articulated front trigger, and optional self-opener are key features." Need I say more?
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,983 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,983 Likes: 106 |
"Need I say more?" NO, you are very accurate and very clear. But, beating a dead horse rarely makes them move there Adam.
Socialism is almost the worst.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021 |
Interesting discussion on the Spanish shotgun. All I know is I had one Spanish sidelock and it was light as a feather and tough as nails. I traded it on an Italian sidelock thinking that the Italian would be head and shoulders better than the Spaniard and that was one stupid assumption.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,418 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,418 Likes: 2 |
Interesting discussion on the Spanish shotgun. All I know is I had one Spanish sidelock and it was light as a feather and tough as nails. I traded it on an Italian sidelock thinking that the Italian would be head and shoulders better than the Spaniard and that was one stupid assumption. I made that same assumption...Now I realize the only thing Italy has over Spain in quality SxS production is in the single trigger category...for some reason the Spanish makers just cant get it right on a consistent basis....but then again that is just copying the British again..... 
gunut
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