April
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
Who's Online Now
11 members (Jem Finch, Jolly Bill, Jimmy W, Argo44, DaveB, 1 invisible), 199 guests, and 4 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,463
Posts545,044
Members14,409
Most Online1,258
Mar 29th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 37
Tamid Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 37
I am looking at a Charles (II) Rossun hammer shotgun (Derby) in 12 ga. I can't find any information or comps on this gun. It is a round body, 28 inch barrels but has been bored out to cylinder and 2 3/4 chambers. Any information on Charles (II) and/or comps. would be appreciated. Thanks.

Last edited by Tamid; 10/21/15 08:14 PM.

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 666
Likes: 45
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 666
Likes: 45
Not spelled "Rosson" by chance, is it?

Too bad there aren't pics with this link:

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a...885475&sid=

Here is another link that at least includes some photos:

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/103403-rosson-hammer-gun-relisted-price-drop/

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 37
Tamid Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 37
i double checked the side plates and both spell Rossun. Barrel rib says Derby so perhaps the engraver made a mistake. This thread http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/103403-rosson-hammer-gun-relisted-price-drop/ shows an almost identical gun. Here they are asking $1095CAD. I was thinking perhaps $500 but I see the one on the link is listed a 125 English pounds.


Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 37
Tamid Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 37
Ps: on the barrel flats of this gun there is a deer within a circle and under it is GH.


Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 666
Likes: 45
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 666
Likes: 45
Have you had a chance to peruse this post? Seems like some good info on Charles II, if it is in fact a Rosson as opposed to a Rossun. Notably, some mention the name Rossen as well.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=220751&page=1

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 37
Tamid Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 37
Lagopus has done some research on the father Charles (II) from Derby and that is where this gun is from. I will wait till Lagopus weighs in.


Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 593
Likes: 12
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 593
Likes: 12
If it is of any help, this is what IGC has on Charles Rosson:

Name Dobson & Rosson
Other Names Charles Rosson; Rosson & Son
Address1 4 Market Head
Address2 12 Market Place
City/Town Derby
County Derbyshire
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gunmakers
Other Address
Dates 1877-1950

Notes
A Francis Rosson was in business in Colchester Street, Whitechapel in 1811, he may have been the brother of a Charles Rosson (I) (b.1816) who was born in Whitechapel, London, and possibly the brother of Thomas Rosson (date of birth unknown). Francis, Charles I and Thomas may have moved to Birmingham at some time before about 1837 when a firm named Rosson & Son were recorded. A gun dated prior to 1840 and engraved Rosson & Son, Birmingham, has been seen. Thomas Rosson was recorded as a gun maker at Court, 22 Lancaster Street in 1838. Charles I was recorded as being in business as a gunmaker at 56 Hatchett Street, Birmingham, from 1840 to 1856. In 1857 Charles I moved to 19 Livery Street, Birmingham, and in 1859 he appears to have opened a shop at 46 Market Place Warwick. Several Birmingham gunmakers, Edwinson Green is an example, opened and supplied their own provincial retail gunshops rather than sell at trade prices. Also in 1861, a G Rosson was recorded as a stockmaker at 1 Whittall Street. It is possible that he was related, but the relationship is unknown. In the 1861 census, Charles I (aged 45) was recorded as a gunmaker employing 1 man and 1 boy. He was living at 19 Livery Street with his wife, Sibyl (aged 42), their son, Charles II (b.1842) an apprentice gunmaker, four daughters aged between 19 and 5, and another son, William Henry Belinda Rosson aged 1 year.

It has been widely reported that Charles (II) was apprenticed to John Francis & Co of 31 Whittall Street, and then worked for Hollis & Sheath. The reverse is probably correct, because Hollis & Sheath traded from 1849 to 1861, and John Francis & Co traded from 1860 to 1867. As stated above, Charles II was born in 1842, he would not have been apprenticed until he reached the age of 14 in 1856. It is possible that Charles II, having ceased working for John Francis & Co when they closed in 1867, then worked for his father in Birmingham or in Warwick if indeed, the Charles Rosson of Warwick was part of his father's business. The Warwick business closed in 1870. In 1873, Charles II opened his own business in Birmingham, the firm was was named Charles Rosson Jnr, and it was recorded at 20 St Mary's Row. Between 1874 and 1878 the firm moved to 8 St Mary's Row. It was not recorded after 1882 but may well have traded up to about 1900, a double barrelled hammer gun engraved C Rosson, 13 St Mary's Row, Birmingham, has been seen and dated to about 1900. Whoever Charles II had been working for, himself or his father or someone else, in about 1877 he went into partnership with R Dobson. This suggests that they knew each other quite well, they may have worked together, alternatively, Charles Rosson Jnr may have supplied R Dobson with guns. In 1868 R Dobson had bought the business of Frederick Gates at 4 Market Head, Derby (for further information about Charles II in Derby see Dobson & Rosson of Derby). In the 1881 census Charles I (aged 65) was recorded living at 22 Weaman Row with his wife, Sibyl and their son William Henry Rosson (aged 21) a gun finisher. This Weaman Row address has not been recorded elsewhere, so it seems that the Rosson family and this business did not occupy the premises for long. It would appear that the firm closed in 1882/3. A Charles Rosson died in Birmingham in 1892, this was probably Charles I. In 1868 R Dobson (formerly employed by Thompson & Son of Edinburgh) bought the firm of Frederick Gates at 4 Market Head, Derby. Although it has not been confirmed, he reportedly moved the firm to Rotten Row in 1870, but in about 1874 his address was recorded as 4 Market Head.

The name of the firm did not change until 1877 when Charles Rosson (Charles II) joined as a partner, and the firm of Dobson & Rosson came into being. The partnership between Dobson and Rosson suggests that they knew each other quite well, they may have worked together, alternatively, Charles Rosson (II) may have supplied R Dobson with guns. R Dobson died between 1878 and 1881. The 1881 census records Euphenia Dobson (aged 44), a partner in a gunshop, as born in Scotland in 1837. Clearly she had inherited her husband's share of the business. It also records a daughter Mary (b.1866) and three sons, James Dobson (b.1869), William O Dobson (b.1871) and Charles I (I) Dobson(b.1876). Only Charles was born in Derby, the others were born in Scotland, so it seems that Euphenia returned to Edinburgh to have her first four children. Charles Rosson (II) initially lived at 5 Duffield Road, Derby. The 1881 census records Charles II (aged 39) living at 108 Uttoxeter Road, Derby with his wife, Sarah (nee Armroyd b.1843), two daughters, Annie S (b.1875) and Florence E (b.1878), Percy (James) (b.1879) and Charles S Rosson (Charles III) (aged 10 months born 3 June 1880). On 30 September 1889 Charles Rosson of Market Head, Derby registered patent No. 15313 for an ejector mechanism. On 23 December 1890 he patented an adjustable fore-end attachment described in one report as a "fore-end loader" under patent No. 20930. What this was is not known. In 1892 he patented his famous "Eclipse" loading machine (No. 8813) with improvements (patent No. 3065) in 1894. In the 1891 census the family was recorded living at Mona Villa, Uttoxeter New Road, but whether this was the same place as 108 Uttoxeter Road or not is not known.

In the 1890s the firm had premises in Littleover (now a suburb of Derby) where they loaded cartridges. This may also have been a shooting ground. The firm dabbled in exporting guns, from about 1900 the firm had an agent in Denmark. In the years prior to 1905 Charles II appears to have decided that, as the elder son, Percy James Rosson (known as "Young Rosson" in the trade), would succeed him at the Derby business. Accordingly, in 1905 it appears that the name of the Derby firm changed to Rosson & Son, but there is a report that the firm's name only changed in 1912/13. If this is correct, the son could have been Percy, or Percy's son, of whom there is no record. At the same time, Charles II bought the business of H Wilson at 13 Rampant Horse Street, Norwich, Norfolk, and sent Charles III to run it. This business was formerly Wilson & Wilson, and prior to that E Wilson, and prior to that William Cartwright, and prior to that Isaac Walker. On 26 February 1913 P J and C S Rosson registered patent No. 4883 for heel plate and grip safety. On 8 August 1914 Charles II died, Percy inherited the business in Derby and Charles (III) inherited the Norwich business. Reportedly, the reason why C S Rosson moved to Norwich was because of a family disagreement, but it would have been normal at that time for Percy, the eldest son, to inherit the family business and, especially if it could not support two families, for Charles (III) to make his own future, most probably with some financial help from his father. The 1913 patent and the fact that the Norwich business sold cartridges after 1914 under the old Rosson of Derby names, indicates that although the businesses were separate entities from 1914, any serious family disagreement was unlikely. From about 1914 the firm's guns were made by various Birmingham trade makers including Midland Gun Company and, later, Ward & Sons.

In 1941 the firm's address changed to 12 Market Place, Derby. This was the result of re-numbering the street rather than moving the business. In March 1950 Percy James Rosson retired and moved to live at 769 Duffield Road, Allestree, Derby, the business closed. See Charles Rosson of 56 Hatchett Street, Birmingham; Charles Rosson of Warwick; Charles S Rosson of 13 Rampant Horse Street, Norwich; and Hellis Rosson Ltd.

Other Info
The firm sold a model of shotgun named the "Universal" with a rib extension, and a double Express rifle named the "Automatic Cocking Gun". The firm loaded cartridges under their own name, they also loaded cartridges under the names "Grouse Ejector", "Eclipse" (deep shell red/brown in colour - post 1910 and 1918), "Roeditch" (named after an area of Derby), "Kuvert", "Monville" (post 1927 deep shell named after "Mona Villa" which was the name of the Rosson's residence in the 1890s) (early ones were light green and very rare, later blue ones are quite rare, and even later bright red ones appear to have been loaded with large shot sizes), and "Vipax" (economy load).

Tim


Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.056s Queries: 28 (0.033s) Memory: 0.8424 MB (Peak: 1.8989 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-04-24 02:43:01 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS