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Drew Hause #388229 12/24/14 04:55 PM
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Tough work

Adolph Menzel, "The Iron-Rolling Mill" (Modern Cyclops), 1875


Drew Hause #388236 12/24/14 05:48 PM
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I think I see one or two possible OSHA violations!

Merry Christmas to all.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

Drew Hause #388247 12/24/14 07:47 PM
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Rolling Mills in France, from De La Cononnerie Ou Fabrication des Canons de Fusil, M. Ronchard-Siauve
http://books.google.com/books?id=uedDAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA202

In 1830, after the revolution of July, the organization of the national guards having brought great orders of weapons of guerre has Saint-Etienne, it was an occasion favorable for the clever spirits to seek manufacturing processes faster and more economical. Mr. elder Boivin, mechanic of a great merit, like Mr. Girardet, of the Comte’, had then the idea to substitute for the use of the hammers and the trip hammers that of the rolling mill, non-seulement for the manufacture of the lopins for canons a rubans [Twist], as well as rods for the Damas, but still for the direct manufacture of the canons de guerre ou canons lisse.

They carried out their tests on Rue Trefilery, in the factory currently occupied by Mr. Perret (Adrien), which also carried out the first tests there; a new industry for Saint-Etienne, celle du pudlage des fers lins à la houille. It arrived unfortunately, in this circumstance, that too often in the industry when one tries to make a progress by the substitution of the work of the machines to that of the men. The emotions were worked up in the workmen canonniers: the rolling mill went, said to them one, them ùter all their work. The heads were assembled at the point a riot burst out. A troop d' ouvrie; s exaltés invaded the new establishment and broke all it could break. The life even of the authors of this test was put in great danger, and they do not last their safety with the intervention of kind neighbors who lent their assistance to them to make them escape secretly. La Garde Nationale was transported, in vain, on the spot to stop the disorder; it was attacked itself with stone blows, and several men, in particular those of the company of artillery, were seriously wounded. It has been for this time that Saint-Etienne was equipped with permanent garrison.

These tests of manufacture of the guns to the rolling mill, thus unfortunately stopped, were continued later in Saint-Julien, close to Saint-Chamond, but with little success. One made weld with the hammer of the manchons (sleeves) of approximately 30 cm, to have a better welding, then one passed these sleeves to the rolling mill to lengthen them and give them the shape of the guns. In spite of this modification in the process, there were always so many rejects one finished by abandonnder these tests in our countries for in holding with the old system.

Drew Hause #388338 12/26/14 11:28 AM
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I tried to do some translation research on the word Moire'. It appears to be a French word with perhaps a Norwegian language background. The translation is a combination of the concepts of "shimmering effect" and "memory". Perhaps similar to the ripples that continue after a rock is thrown into water. Or in the case of damascus steel, the effects remaining in the damascus pattern as a result of hammer blows on the metal. The English Ruban naming of the pattern, must be derived by attributing the pattern's appearance to something found in Celtic artwork.

Quote:
By manufacturing the lopin, to make the iron and steel barrel from which I come to speak, it arrived sometimes that the forgeur is misled, with the of place; ce qui avait confondu toutes les mises ensemble. The canonnier, unaware of the error made, once the forged and déroché gun, is found amazed to see appearing a completely odd nuance, imitating the effet de moire. It is this the Canon Moire' was called.


I read this paragraph as saying that the barrel welder discovers that he has made a barrel from poorly prepared damascus rods. The iron and/or steel not sufficiently welded and folded to homogenize the scrap pieces before it was stacked in the lopin. This results in a random appearing patterning, caused by the individual scrap pieces showing in the etched barrel. ce qui avait confondu toutes les mises ensemble. = which had confounded all put together

Japanese swordsmiths took homogenization of blade steel to the extreme. They purportedly folded their steel, up to a million layers. Still after this concerted effort to homogenize the metal, Japanese blades have been described as being made of "watered steel". The etched blades displaying faint ghostly swirls, resembling water spots on a table top.

Quote:
Might be just a round punch making regular dimples along an untwisted layered bar.


I won't argue against Craig's thoughts too strongly. He is correct that punching the layered bar will facilitate creating the pattern shown in the photo. However, the effects of the multitude of hammer blows that fell on the barrel tube is probably sufficient to cause the pattern. Modern damascus smiths call this "Random Pattern" damascus. This term coined probably in the mid 1970's. Bladesmiths who use this pattern, usually will intentionally leave hammer marks on the surface of the forged blade. Grinding away the hammer marks, rather than forging the blade surface smooth, will develop a degree of patterning in the steel.

Quote:
Even careful reforging to a smaller diameter might show the logical elongation of the patterns that were already formed in the larger bore barrel.


Craig,
I don't wish for my comments to seem that I am picking on your analysis'. wink You are correct that on the face of it, it seems logical that forging a barrel tube smaller would elongate it. However, it does not. This is one of the interesting pieces of the puzzle, regarding forging small bore barrel tubes.

Forging a solid round rod smaller, will definitely cause it to elongate. The rod is compressed between the hammer and the anvil, causing the material to move laterally. The lateral movement of the metal will lengthen the rod.

In forging a hollow tube to a smaller diameter, the upper surface of the tube is not supported by the anvil. Without the anvil to support the underside of the metal, there will be no compression of it, thus no elongation of the tube. Hammering on the tube, will only drive the sides of the tube closer together. I'll dig into this subject deeper, when I post the thread on forging small bore barrel tubes.


Steve Culver
Steve Culver Knives
Drew Hause #388403 12/27/14 09:08 AM
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For those still reading smile more on Damas Moire

Moire’ comes from the French mouaire (mohair) and is defined as "having a watered or wavelike pattern." Moire (noun pronounced "mwar") and moiré (adjective pronounced "mwar-ay") are now used somewhat interchangeably in English, though moire is more often used for the cloth and moiré for the pattern. (I think Bro. Larry helped with the French)

Watered silk is a textile which has a moire pattern, a rippling illusory pattern created by lines which are superimposed on each other. Watered silk resembles a body of water with small waves trembling in a breeze.

Moiré Antique effect is obtained by first damping the material and folding it with the face side inward, and with the two selvedges running together side by side. The cloth is then passed between heated cylinders and under pressure. Moire Anglaise is an imitation produced mechanically by means of engraved copper rollers.

Effet de moire' refers to the pattern seen when two plates of plate glass have a thin film of water between them; not unlike oil film on water. In textiles, it is used to describe the wavy lines in silk patterns.

Moire' effect seen on a parrot's wing



Another modern Moire' blade



This might be acid etched Moire'


Drew Hause #388411 12/27/14 11:47 AM
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Maybe the woodworking term 'chatoyance' is a more modern description of moire'. You may be describing finishing techniques more so than just patterns. Kind of like visualizing case colors, changing light reflections can change the appearance, but the look seems to fit better with soft curved patterns rather than corners and points.

Thanks for the time Steve and explanation. Makes sense, and I look forward to your new thread.

Drew Hause #454252 08/25/16 11:29 AM
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Bro. Steve remains on a possibly Quixotic quest for the "Lopin Rosetta Stone", without which we can't really KNOW how the incredibly creative and artistic damascus patterns were obtained. He's been in contact with Continental knife makers, and found this from Manfred Sachse's Alles über Damaszener Stahl, 1993. Unfortunately, the source of the examples is uncertain, though likely Delcour-Dupont.

Top, left to right: 1. Rampant Lion; 2. Chain; 3. Boston, a symmetric large scroll 2 iron Crolle; 4. ? Bernard.
Bottom, left to right: 1. Star, American Flag, or Etoile'; 2. A higher grade Damas Crolle, probably 3 or 4 iron; 3. Washington; 4. Obviously similar lopin to Boston, but probably used for 2 Iron Oxford which was asymmetric.



Drew Hause #454336 08/26/16 10:48 AM
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Drew, all this fascinating research needs to lead to a book on the subject. Lagopus.....

Drew Hause #454358 08/26/16 02:10 PM
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Thank you Grouseguy, but our British correspondents have yet to find the "English Damascus Rosetta Stone" wink
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18059733

Drew Hause #460803 10/31/16 04:26 PM
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Many thanks to Bro. Daryl who alerted me to this Lefaucheux action Imman Meffert In Suhl with Bernard variant barrels. I think this is likely 'end-on' of the thinner 3 iron ribband segment that was folded when butt welded to the thicker breech barrel segment. Steve Culver would know



Looks like the upper 4th lopin segment shown above

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