doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com How to determine if barrels have been cut

I realize this sounds like a simple question, but besides length is there any indications to look for to determine if barrels have been cut down? The specifics of my Holland are: 29 3/4" barrels, choked cyl/cyl, wall thickness is 23 and 24 thousanths, and balance is about 1" behind the hinge pin.

I paid for the factory letter, but it seems Holland did not start recording barrel lengths until the 1890's, mine was finished in 1875. Due to the wall thickness, and that while the chambers have minor pitting the barrels are mirror smooth, I'm surmising they have been honed. Would that remove enough metal to change the balance point? The patina on the muzzles is the same as the rest of the barrels, so if they were cut its been a very long time since they were done. Or did English guns occasionally wear odd barrel lengths like this one?

Thank you for any input, and a merry Christmas to all!

Is there any gap between the barrels at the muzzle. Usually uncut barrels touch. Also, are there any steel "keels" at the muzzle in the little "V" formed from the top rib downward to where the barrels touch? Or is it just filled with solder? Is the front bead dead center the rib? All these are hints to look for.

Yes, it sounds very likely the barrels have been honed, perhaps significantly. However, cylinder bores were most common in the time you have given for manufacture.

Length of choke will usually tell the tale.

Since it is cyl you can not go by how long the choke is. Even in 1875 is was not that odd to come across a gun with no chokes. Old shooters could order guns, to their personal desires, and many were happy shooting guns without chokes.

As to barrel length 29 3/4" is odd. Could have been a 30" gun which needed the barrel muzzle end cleaned up after minor damage or they could have been 31" or 32" and cut back to match later 30" norms. Might figure it out by adding weight to the muzzle and see if it balances on the hinge pin.

Smarter people than me should be able to calculate what a inch of barrel should weight. I'd figure three to four ounces to balance at the hinge pin would point to a 32" set of barrels. But does it matter? Changes made a hundred plus years ago are as much a part of the gun as they would be 130 years ago when first made. British shooters as not as obsessive about factory originality as we are. And you are what the fourth to enth care taker of this fine gun? Guard it well and make as few changes as possible to keep it running.

Forgive me if this is not at all valuable, but you say the maker can't help and you have the information on whether the muzzles touch and because it is true cylinder you have no choke length. That's about all there is. I think the muzzle convergence thing among the rest is the most telling as double gun barrels converge. There are guns made where the barrels don't converge completely, RBLs for example, but cutting off two inches of barrel might show a separation in most other guns. I have a gun similarly choke as yours and I am sorting through what I want to do with it, but I know mine is cut because I did it to solve an issue. As said I am at the stage where I am working on finding out all I can do with cylinder choke. You can put choke in or experiment with it as is. You know your answer better than me for certain. I wish you all the best anyway.

Remember, for upland bird hunting cylinder bores will give the most killing pattern out to about 30 yards of any boring. Typically the shot is much more evenly spread in a 30" circle at that distance than a choked gun which likely will have a fairly dense center but thinner spread of shot outside a 20" circle than a cylinder will. Cylinder is by far my favorite when hunting over pointed birds.

[img]https://flic.kr/p/QrnT3R[/img]

[img]https://flic.kr/p/PSsuRj[/img]

Hopefully the images upload, I finally ditched photo bucket, trying flicr.

The barrels do appear to touch, and the bead is in the center. I realize it's not super important, but I'm a curious person and am trying to puzzle this oddity out. And cut barrels will have a significant impact on value, if I ever go to trade up.

The second picture is the underside rib, almost looks like a second was replaced at some point?

If, like me, you have L.C. Smiths, pre-1913 Grade 2 and up, post 1913- Ideal Grade and up- you are in luck, as Hunter Arms gunsmiths filed "witness dimples" into the top and bottom ribs on their barrels, to verify original factory length as ordered. For an example of this, see DGJ Winter 2011-Vol. 22 Issue 4- page 115.

Mr. Archer, a fine gun writer and an authority on L.C. Smiths details this in the foto on said page. Also, as I know own a 1905 Grade 3E 12 with two sets of factory fitted barrels, the marking on my 32" VR set of Nitro Steel barrels added after 1927, and the matching beavertail style ejector forearm is 100% identical to that show in his close detailed fotos found on the following page, 116. Well worth reading, and details not found in Lt. Col. Brophy's fine tome on the "Elsie".

FWITIC--I now own two graded ejector 12 gauge Smiths with factory VR barrels- the aforementioned 3E with 32" F&F, and a 1931 mfg. 12 Eagle grade with 30" VR barrels, choked Imp. Mod & full, and perhaps due to the top rib detail, no "dimple appears" in that area. I also own a 1945 Marlin Smith Ideal Grade 12 FWE- with 26" open choked barrels and the $5.00 optional raised solid rib- the "single sighting plane" design Hunter Arms first offered in 1939, and that Smith also is sans the "witness dimples"-- quien sabes??

Fox,
"Witness dimples---Ideal and up"
Either Tom was suffering from a brain f*** or you misread the article. I've never seen an Ideal with the features you describe, or every Ideal I've handled had cut barrels and had a barrel stretcher applied.

Never heard of a barrel stretcher but at the rail road we had a track stretcher....