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I pattern game guns at 30 yards these days. When they took lead away from me I had to stop pass shooting ducks. Well I shot more crows that ducks some years. Still my days of shooting a large number of birds at 40 plus yards is over. I find that most of my shooting is between 25 and 35 yards. So what patterns well at 30 seems to work well for me at the rest.

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Consider erecting a grease plate, as opposed to only shooting paper. I have shot paper, for patterning, for some 30 years, but only recently built a grease plate. It is a couple miles from home on another piece of property I own, but I'm over there a lot. I've found that I shoot many more patterns with the grease plate than I did with paper because it is always ready. Just roll the paint/oil mixture to erase the last pattern and it's ready to go. The only costs I incurred was the piece of 4' x 4'x 3/16" steel plate and two treated 4" x 4" posts. I had enough scrap, treated 2" x 8"s, to build the framework backing for the plate. I take pics of the patterns if I want to save them, and download onto my computer. Easy, peasy.

I can shoot it as far back as 100+ yds., if I want to. Want to get your feelings hurt? Take your favorite bird gun that has a modified choke in one barrel and pattern it at 60 yds. with a 1 1/8 oz. load. Then look at the number of holes a bird could easily fly through. It's almost enough to make you lose confidence in shooting clay birds at that distance. I shoot a lot of targets on sporting clays courses at 50 - 70 yds., and I can tell you that I am now amazed when I can break 4 long birds straight on a station.

As Tim Conway used to say on the Carol Burnett Show .........very, very in-te-rest-ing.

SRH


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I have a couple of "standard" loads for several of my SxS guns all reloaded duplicates of factory shells. B&P & RST mostly. Patterning them I use a 12 inch circle drawn on construction paper. Pattern both barrels at expected distances. Spreaders 10 20 and 30 yards. 7/8 loads 20 30 & 40 sometimes add a 50 yard pattern.

It tells me 30 is too far for my spreader loads and 50 is to far 7/8 oz. Other distances gives me confidence that gun/load will break a clay target if I am on the bird. Don't think I would gain much confidence interpolation off a single distance.

Using a larger paper & circle may be better for load development. All I am doing is gaining confidence in the combination and not worried about percentages compared to published standards

Stan I have used our clubs steel plate at longer distances and like you found its a confidence looser.

Boats

Last edited by Boats; 03/05/17 07:45 AM.
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Tamid, you can indeed "guesstimate" what your pattern will be at longer ranges by shooting closer patterns. Works relatively well for everything except guns with tight chokes (F and maybe IM), which don't open the same way the more open chokes do. The late Bob Brister's wife, when Brister was working on his book and attempting to explain that fact, told him all he needed to say was that IC goes to hell gradually while full does so all at once.

Anyhow, here's the ballpark formula for guns choked no tighter than Mod: For every 5 yards of distance you add, your pattern will drop 10%. Cylinder, which should throw about 70% at 25 yards, drops to 60% at 30 yards, 50% at 35 yards, 40% at 40 yards. Those are only ballpark numbers and will, of course, depend on the specific load you're shooting.

Where I lived in Iowa for almost 20 years, I had a patterning setup that limited me to 30 yard shots. Always figured I could get a pretty good idea how things would look at 40 yards by shooting at 30 and doing the math. And in my case, I was much more interested in how my guns patterned at 30 yards (or even closer) than I was at 40 yards anyhow--not being a waterfowl hunter, and seldom taking 40 yard shots at upland birds.

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For a large number if years I have observed the pattern tests run in the American Rifleman when they tested a new model gun. I have thus observed a lot more of these than actually doing tests of my own. They have consistently used a pattern which contained a 30" circle & an inner circle of 21" (49% of the 30") & this divided into 4 quarters. All patterning has been done at the traditional 40 yds. The one thing I have noted is the tighter chokes producing patterns of around 70% typically have a higher concentration of that pattern in the inner circle. regardless of choke it is always more than half.
On a well centered hit the tight choke will give much greater range for adequate killing power but is of course surrounded by a large area with insufficient density of shot.
As I view it this would be the exact opposite of what Brister's wife said. The open chokes will give you a wider spread of adequate density at shorter ranges but will play out much closer to the same range than will the full. Even a IC choke will maintain density further on a centered hit than on the fringes but is not as drastically so as the full.


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Shot Pattern Spread from Field and Stream Sept 1964. I do not have the original article but assume the shells were Winchester/Western Mark 5 with the polyethylene shot collar introduced in 1961. Modern loads are very likely better.

…………………………………………YARDS………………………….
.....…….....10…… 15……20……25……30……35……40
CHOKE
Full…………. 9……..12……16……21……26……33……40 inches

Mod……..……12…….16……20……26……32……38……46 inches

Imp Cyl……..15…….20……26……32……38……44……51 inches

Cylinder…… 19……26……32……38……44……51……57 inches

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Tamid -

I pity you trying to make sense of near senseless ramblings. Unless a barrel has been modified in some way, the original choke markings will be as indicative as anything of killing effectiveness if you use standard ammo. You can pattern all you like at any distance that rings your bell and the most important thing that patterning will tell you is the POI of that gun with you shooting it. Trying to make a great conclusion out of shotgun patterns is a waste of time. Do what Mr. Winston says in the link I provided above and then spend some quality time shooting
So here's the essentials as they work for me:
IC for close targets - my IC will kill out to about 30yds but closer is better. I used a 0.012/#3 choke in a Perazzi for the first barrel at pigeons and that was 30+yds solid kills at the box
M for intermediate targets - harder to kill closer targets and OK for the 1st barrel at pigeons but prolly not necessary
F Again in the pigeon ring since I KNOW what those distances are, a F will kill at the fence at +/-60yds.

In my experience the choke markings on any Italian gun tell me all I need to know about how that gun will kill. I have no reason to suspect that the original marking/choke on any reasonable quality gun would be any different

besta luck

have another day
Dr.WtS


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One other thing to remember. I have an engineering background and spent a life time dealing with items in the trans sonic speed range. This can drive a man to drink. I pattern probably too much. I had a friend that I used to hunt ducks, geese and cranes with. We both shot 12ga SBEs. I used to tell him not to used 3 1/2 Ts in his SBE because the patterns would fall apart. He nodded his head and went ahead shooting the Ts. He consistently out shot me. It goes back to an old English axiom: A poor pattern on target kills better then a good pattern off.

What we have here is an unruly projectile flying at trans sonic speeds fired by a human being. This gets into the math of chaos realm and science is not yet ready to crack a problem with this many variables. Pattern, shoot what works for you, do what comes natural and don't waste time thinking about it.

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From my personal experience I am more often over choked than under choked but I do limit my ranges whenever possible. I rarely take 40 plus yard shots at game unless it is a followup shot on a bird already hit closer. Now clay targets are often shot at longer ranges but as they say a wounded clay target is scored dead and does not fly off to die later. Some of my favorite Sporting Clay courses seem to think a falling teal needs to be at 50 yards to be any challenge. Add in wind and low temperatures and every hit is an achievement.

Patterning guns can play with your mind when your favorite load looks no better than five others. Worse never pattern your .410 because it will give you doubts about the .410 ever hitting birds at all. I've seen loads which consistently smoked clay targets which when pattern on paper did not look at all impressive. And if you pour out your .410 shot charge into your hand you will think is that all there is. Wow it is a little gun.

I find POI is more important to my shooting most of the time than a slightly tighter choke selection. A great pattern does not do much if 50-75% is off target to start with because your POI is off. So while you are patterning those loads do not forget to check your POI at some point. And extra layers of clothing, shooting from a sitting position or from a layout blind does change things.

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Originally Posted By: Wonko the Sane
Tamid -

I pity you trying to make sense of near senseless ramblings. Unless a barrel has been modified in some way, the original choke markings will be as indicative as anything of killing effectiveness if you use standard ammo. You can pattern all you like at any distance that rings your bell and the most important thing that patterning will tell you is the POI of that gun with you shooting it. Trying to make a great conclusion out of shotgun patterns is a waste of time. Do what Mr. Winston says in the link I provided above and then spend some quality time shooting
So here's the essentials as they work for me:
IC for close targets - my IC will kill out to about 30yds but closer is better. I used a 0.012/#3 choke in a Perazzi for the first barrel at pigeons and that was 30+yds solid kills at the box
M for intermediate targets - harder to kill closer targets and OK for the 1st barrel at pigeons but prolly not necessary
F Again in the pigeon ring since I KNOW what those distances are, a F will kill at the fence at +/-60yds.

In my experience the choke markings on any Italian gun tell me all I need to know about how that gun will kill. I have no reason to suspect that the original marking/choke on any reasonable quality gun would be any different

besta luck

have another day
Dr.WtS


I pity you, thinking that everyone but you is a (near) nonsensical idiot. But, I guess ,as always, it's up to the OP to determine which answers seem reasonable and which do not. Probably makes it much easier on him when the California Sage comes along and puts everyone else in their place, tho'.

SRH

Last edited by Stan; 03/05/17 03:30 PM.

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