doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Forsyth and co Patent gun company.

This is my first percussion gun.
I�m aware of who Alexander Forsyth was and the impact he had on firearms of the day.
However I don�t know much about his firm, who made his guns?
This one I�m picking was from later in the piece as it does not have the scent bottle locks, rather standard percussion.
I�m picking 1840-50, any advances on this?
The general fit and finish is very good, not extensively engraved but I suspect that might be standard for the day.
Also interested in the Damascus, did this earlier percussion period have various types and patterns or was it a more standard item?
I do plan to shoot it, bores measure around .660 so I�m guessing it was made as a 16 bore.
It�s in pretty good condition, including the bores, but I will have to get new nipples and one will need to be recut and seated properly.
Anyone here use a muzzleloader?

GDU

Wow I just drooled

wow...wonderful gun in wonderful condition...

you are right not to shoot it...

for shooting, suggest one of the pedersoli repros...

Ed, reading & comprehension. He does plan to shoot it.
Just as I would if were fortunate enough to own such a nice condition piece.
We can all buy another Pedersoli every day of the week, but not guns like this beauty.
Greg, I have been looking for a similar gun now for quite a while & I am going to handle one next week.
It is an Osbourne for $995 AU & I hope it is in as good condition as yours appears to be.
Well done on snagging it.
May I ask, how many $ NZ ?
O.M

Greg, that is a beauty! The wood is just stunning. Assuming the bores are good and free from any serious pitting, I can understand why you'd wish to shoot it, since that was the intended purpose. I agree with your estimation of the date it was produced. Perhaps a few years earlier. Alexander Forsyth died in 1843, but his company was apparently still producing guns until 1852. Even in this era, there were many different forms and patterns of Damascus being produced in several different countries.



Please excuse our resident anti-gunner Ed Good for not being intelligent enough to comprehend your intention to shoot this lovely percussion gun. He probably has mistaken it for one of the types of guns that he proposes banning. Gladys Kravitz, I mean old colonel, ought to be along shortly in another attempt to provide cover for Ed. Pay no attention to them. Trolls will be trolls.

Your gun would date to 1830 according to "Forsyth & Co Patent Gunmakers" book.
For me the hammer style is something special - called "Dolphin" hammers if my memory is correct ?
Forsyth originally set up his own business in 1808 with a James Purdey as stocker, lock filer, and later as manager. Forsyth had sold out his interest in the business in 1819 and returned to his original job in Aberdeenshire.

This is what IGC has on our man:


Name Alexander Forsyth
Other Names Forsyth Patent Gun Co; Forsyth & Co
Address1 10 Piccadilly
Address2 8 Leicester Street, Leicester Square
City/Town London
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gunmaker
Dates 1808-1852

Notes
Alexander John Forsyth (1768-1843) was the Presbyterian church minister of Belhelvie, Aberdeenshire, Scotland, from 1791 to 1843. He was well educated, and particularly interested in firearms, the sciences, and explosives.
Throughout the 1600s and 1700s people had experimented with explosive fulminating compounds, and in 1800 the Board of Ordnance allowed Edward Howard to test his mixture of fulminate of mercury and saltpetre with a view to using it to replace gunpowder. This mixture proved too powerful, but Forsyth realized that the mixture could be used as a primer, and that percussion ignition of gunpowder in a barrel could be swifter and more reliable than flintlock ignition. All that was needed was a reliable means of delivering the right quantity of the right mixture to the pan. By 1805 he had perfected the mixture.

In 1806 he moved to London where his cousin, Henry Brougham, later Lord Chancellor, introduced him to Sir Joseph Banks. Sir Joseph introduced him to Lord Moira who was Master General of Ordnance. Lord Moira gave Forsyth premises at the Tower of London, and supplied him with workmen and materials so that he could develop the means of reliably delivering the mixture to the pan of any type of firearm or cannon in the right quantity. Forsyth employed Joseph Vicars to help him further develop his ideas.

It seems that the other gunsmiths working at the Tower copied and tried to improve on Forsyth's work, which did not please him, but it was the appointment of Lord Chatham as Master General and his termination of the arrangement with Forsyth that brought about Forsyth's return to Belhelvie in 1807. In spite of this setback, on 11 April that year, reportedly with assistance from James Watt, the inventor of the steam engine, Forsyth patented "a method of discharging firearms by percussion powder" (No. 3032). He then continued developing his "roller magazine primer" ("scent bottle" shaped primer), sliding lock primer, and brass and steel faced touch holes.

In June 1808 Forsyth went into partnership with his cousin, James Brougham (brother of Henry), under the name Forsyth Patent Gun Company at at 10 Piccadilly, London. Joseph Vicars was employed as chief mechanic. The scent bottle primers were later made for Forsyth by Henry Maudslay.

Between 1808 and 1809 the firm developed their sliding magazine lock.

In 1809 Vicars' employment was reportedly terminated, Charles Bagley Uther joined as a partner and manager of the firm which was renamed Forsyth & Co. Vicars established his own business at 27 Seward Street, Goswell Street. In 1811 Forsyth had to go to Court to stop him making locks which infringed the Forsyth patent, similar actions followed against W A Beckwith, Jackson Mortimer and Joseph Manton.

Forsyth & Co employed William Ling (then aged 14, he later rose to be Foreman and then in 1829 left to establish his own business). William Webster was employed as a mechanic and lock filer prior to him establishing his own business. Robert Anderson was a journeyman working with the firm from 1812 to 1818 prior to running his own business. J McLachlan was a gun filer 1808-1818. James Purdey was a stocker and lock filer between 1808 and 1813, some reports say he was Forsyth's foreman. Bernard Denyer was employed at some time in an unknown capacity.

Forsyth's ideas were developed by others into the percussion cap, the invention of which was most notably claimed by both Joseph Manton and Joseph Egg, but also Joshua Shaw, an an Englishman who emigrated to America. He was an artist but, because of the copper cap, called himself an inventor. He reportedly invented his cap in 1815 and patented it in the USA in 1822 (see Joshua Shaw).

In 1808 S J Pauly, a Swiss gunmaker working in Paris, had invented a breech-loader which used a cartridge containing a fulminate which was ignited by a firing pin. The importance of Pauly's invention was not understood and he turned his inventiveness to hot air balloons. It was in 1815 that Durs Egg and S J Pauly patented a dolphin shaped balloon (patent No.3909) but at an unknown date around this time Joseph Egg claimed to have invented the copper percussion cap. Joseph Manton claimed the same, his claim was backed by Col Peter Hawker who said that he had proposed the idea to Manton.

In 1816 the firm moved to 8 Leicester Street, Leicester Square.

A licence to make guns on the Forsyth patents was granted to James Innes of Edinburgh. The Forsyth Patent Gun Co was not financially successful and in 1819 Charles Uther and his son bought the shares of Forsyth and Brougham. Forsyth returned to Scotland and continued as a minister until he died in 1843.

In 1829 William Ling left to open his own business.

From 1834 to 1842 Forsyth fought the Government for recompense for the work he had done for them. On 11 July 1840 he petitioned Parliament, and in 1842 the Treasury awarded him �200, and in 1843 his surviving family was awarded �1000.

The company traded for some years as Alexander Forsyth & Co, it exhibited a safety gun and patent locks at the Great Exhibition in 1851 but closed in 1852.

Goodman & Sons supplied gun cases to Forsyths.

Tim

Yes, very nice! The dolphin head hammers was the first feature that caught my eye, too. Stunning condition. How are the bores? If they are as good as the exterior you've really got a gem

Equal volumes of FFg black and shot will shoot nicely in it. I shoot a 16 bore myself. Hope you enjoy it.

SRH

I have an original 14 bore on my ticket that i shoot, very much a lower quality piece but a good shooter.

I started with the "equal volume loads" but i really didn't get good performance, it could well have been my poor skill but i started adjusting my loads after hearing an old rhyme

"less powder more lead,
Shoots far, kills dead"
"More powder less lead
Kicks hard, wide spread"

A properly sized wad makes all the difference.

Note that the equal volume load will give approximately a 2� dram load per ounce of shot. Multiply the oz load you shoot by 2� & it will give the approximate dram load for the equal volume. This equal volume load is on the fringe of More Shot, Less Lead. Note the load markings on commercially loaded shells, even those of 100+ years ago & you will see most are/were loaded with a heavier powder charge than this equal volume amount..