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Gene,
I do need to clarifiy something. While I do struggle a bit to understand Geoffroy, the man has done outstanding gunsmithing and engraving for me, and has always followed instructions to the letter.
I've progressed over the years to the point I can do my own maintenance, light repair, trigger adjustments, and simple stock work on my Darnes, and only tend to bother Mr. Gournet for larger projects, and he has never disappointed me, either doing the work or overseeing someone else.
I wish I lived closer, I'd make it a point to take him hunting.

Yes indeed, many guns were hidden during the two occupations of France. But, I have seen so many pitted bores, not just on French guns, that it makes me wonder if there was a cult of neglect as well, in Europe. I come from poor enough stock that things had to be maintained, as you couldn't afford to replace them often.

But, not all my friends and neighbors seem to feel the same way.


Best,
Ted

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Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
"Were" four varities, Larry. Further, I'm going to suggest if the differences between them had been critical, it would have turned up in the proof marks.
It didn't. Proof with powder J is proof with powder J.
This seems to be one of those things that didn't matter for very long, and didn't matter all that much when it did matter.


Best,
Ted


Well Ted, we might say that powder J doesn't matter at all now, and hasn't for over a century . . . as far as proof goes. But those other varieties--which Journee explains were used in pistols or for hunting loads--were important enough for a noted French ballistician to include them in a work which delves much deeper into the subject than any source I've read. Sort of like ignoring the Dupont work from the 1930's comparing the pressure curve of several smokeless powders to black powder, showing that there's not nearly the difference that many more modern sources told us to expect.

When we ignore information from the past, it often seems someone has to go back and reinvent the wheel . . . unnecessarily, if only we'd paid attention to what we used to know and somehow managed to forget.

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WC commented above: "Nitro proof relative to BP proof."

Curious about "BP proof." You guys know this but might clarify what this is and when it started ended. Edit: That's the mark for Jean Bruel..the barrel maker

Here is a line about Zapatto Freres gun with a BP on the barrel we never identified; is this the BP referred to? http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...2760#Post442760


Last edited by Argo44; 08/25/18 06:34 AM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Larry,
Proof with powder J, no matter the type of gun, or which version of powder J, tells you all you really need to know.

It isn't proofed with a modern, smokeless powder. You should adjust your loads and use accordingly.

I never suggested we ignore that. But, no matter which version was used in what gun, it was still marked, at the time of proof, as proofed with powder J.

And that is all you, or I, as non leading ballisticians, who aren't writing books on that subject, really need to know.

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Ted

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Ted, I'd suggest you write a letter to General Journee and tell him that . . . but he's dead. You have to remember that this is a worldwide BB. Suppose we stumble upon a Frenchman who wants to know what a load specifying J1, 2, or 3 means? Isn't that kinda like knowledge on all those different kinds of twist/Damascus barrels?

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Originally Posted By: Argo44
WC commented above: "Nitro proof relative to BP proof."

Curious about "BP proof." You guys know this but might clarify what this is and when it started ended.

Here is a line about Zapatto Freres gun with a BP on the barrel we never identified; is this the BP referred to? http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...2760#Post442760



Argo, I can't find any French proofmark that used the letters BP. It'd also be very unusual to find a proofmark on the underside of the rib.

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Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Ted, I'd suggest you write a letter to General Journee and tell him that . . . but he's dead. You have to remember that this is a worldwide BB. Suppose we stumble upon a Frenchman who wants to know what a load specifying J1, 2, or 3 means? Isn't that kinda like knowledge on all those different kinds of twist/Damascus barrels?


A Frenchman would contact the proof house in St. Etienne, and have more information than he ever wanted to know, or, needed to know, about proof with powder J, Larry. Nobody loads anything with powder J today, so, what difference would it make?

The proof mark was PJ under crown, Larry-NOT PJ1, PJ2 or, whatever. There isn't much more to know than the gun was proofed with an obsolete, semi-smokeless powder.

I have skillfully avoided any and all Damascus roulett in my sporting life, Larry. But I'm not a barrel construction purist, anything under abou .025 in a conventional steel barrel I pass on, also.

I'll leave Damascus barrels to those who want them.

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Ted

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Ted, why do we bother trying to compare modern loads to what was originally used in a gun that was proofed a century ago? So much of J1 or J2 . . . what does that mean NOW? Might be of interest to some folks that are into stuff you're not into. Just like Damascus.

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Larry,
If there had been a big diference between the four varieties of J powder, it would have been marked on the flats of the gun which variety the gun was proofed with.

It wasn't. End of story.

We pay attention to modern loads in old guns because we like our fingers and eyes right where they are. The option, I suppose, is using something modern, but, even those fail, occasionally-I'm not chasing any K guns at the moment.

French proof, even with the old powders, was nothing to sneer at. If my Halifax had been proofed with powder J (it wasn't) I'd likely still feed it the 2 3/4" low noise and recoil Winchester loads. The wall thickness is a bit off the charts with that old gun, as it is on many old French guns, and I don't worry much about it letting go, but, it is over 100 years old, and a pound of prevention is worth a ton of cure, in this case.

I'd bet they exist, but, in the years I have been paying attention, I haven't seen a good photo of a blown up French gun. It doesn't seem to be a huge problem.
Powder J, M, S, or T.


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Ted

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This is an ad on the net now:

Manufrance "Ideal" grade "2R" in very nice condition!
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100903700

No photos of the "R," but re-reading Geoffrey and Wildcattle's posts, I think WC meant the "R" is a stamp on the lug of a Manufrance Ideal which is supplemental to the proof stamp meaning it has been proofed for Nitro...similar to the "BP" Biirmingham proof...i.e. it will be in addition to the PT, PS.. stamp(s)..and the Ideal model number will precede the "R". Haven't seen it myself but would like to see a photo for historical reasons....and to know when that started and ended.



And this ad for a book on Guns International answers my previous question about Manufrance Serial numbers - guess I should get the book and will do so next time I'm in France.

Le Fusil de Chasse "Ideal" by Jean-Claude Mounrnetas
Description:
This soft bound book is about the history and development of the Manufrance Ideal model round action trigger plate shotguns and rifles with many pictures and diagrams and the coveted serial number to date chart.
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100397050

Last edited by Argo44; 08/29/17 10:06 PM.

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