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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,494 Likes: 396
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,494 Likes: 396 |
Gene,, I have the book and will scan it for you. Although I won't be home until Tuesday.
Much as I think highly of French guns, my French Collection currently consists of just an Ideal and a Parisian sidelock. So not much help in the piecing together of the St Etienne history.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,164 Likes: 319
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,164 Likes: 319 |
Merci CB..... It would be an excellent post for this line. Shoot well.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,494 Likes: 396
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,494 Likes: 396 |
I wish.
No seasons open yet up here. So I'm whiling the weekend away at the cottage on Georgian Bay. Bossing the kids around.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,085 Likes: 478
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,085 Likes: 478 |
Here's a list James sent me some time ago regarding the Ideal. I'll scan Mournetas Robust models and dates of mfg in a day or so. I will also scan the model numbers and dates mfg. for the Ideal models and dates:
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,494 Likes: 396
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,494 Likes: 396 |
Gil, my understanding is that is a list of dates for barrel production, not necessarily completed gun production.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,085 Likes: 478
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,085 Likes: 478 |
James, I've got Mournetas's books for the Ideal and Robust. I'll scan the tables for each and post if someone doesn't beat me to it. That'll give date ranges by model numbers for each shotgun. Gil
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,164 Likes: 319
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,164 Likes: 319 |
Amazing. Ask a question and guys start pulling stuff out from under their beds. It's so difficult to date Saint Etienne guns.....except maybe it won't be that difficult anymore. Simply amazing. Edit, while here, I want to repost the Darne SN chart previous forwarded. Ted warns that there are some demonstrable inaccuracies but it is a reference tool:
Last edited by Argo44; 11/04/18 01:14 PM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,494 Likes: 396
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,494 Likes: 396 |
Lol Gene.
I hadn't contributed to this thread before because I was kinda putting Manufrance production aside from the smaller workshop output. Always happy to spill what I know....I just assume others already know what I know. Have learned so much here but still think of myself as a beginner.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,381 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,381 Likes: 106 |
Amazing. Ask a question and guys start pulling stuff out from under their beds. It's so difficult to date Saint Etienne guns.....except maybe it won't be that difficult anymore. Simply amazing. Argo, not to be a pessimist . . . but the real issue, on top of a whole bunch of small St. Etienne shops, is the fact that the French never used a date code. In contrast to the Germans, Italians, Spanish, etc. Nor are there quite as many handy clues as there are on British guns, thanks to the number of times they changed their rules of proof. Even a big company like Verney-Carron can't give dates on pre-WWII guns. When I inquired about one I owned years ago, they were very helpful: pages from their catalog pinning down the model and grade, and providing the year in which those guns were first offered. But no serial number list or anything like that. Nevertheless, a whole lot of very useful information is being turned up. Bravo!
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,164 Likes: 319
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,164 Likes: 319 |
Gil has scanned his book on Manufrance and forwarded the following Serial number list for the Ideal and Robust. Here are the tables for the IDEAL. I'll translate the first half of the first page per below:
Dating of the “IDEAL by Registration Number
Currently, three lists are circulating concerning the dating of the IDEAL by their numbers. One at least is complete fantasy, having been established by suppositions about what has been written badly interpreted. Another of a more serious origin seems to have been established according to the production of the barrels. This has nothing to do with the finished arms delivered for sale each year.
On this topic we have an official document furnished by the head office of the manufacturer on page 45 of the 1898 catalogue. Here below is the total production of the IDEAL shotguns for the first 10 years (11,732 shotguns produce in total):
1887: 630 1888: 1,152 1889: 1,925 1890: 2,713 1891: 3,724 1892: 4,683 1993: 5,761 1894: 6,995 1895: 8,107 1896: 10,239 1897: 11,732
These numbers corroborate those in the document given by the official source that we are publishing below.
(Note, these posts have come out quite fuzzy - probably because of the host photo resolution. I will work to get better copies and/or will type it out manually as time permits.) (edit: I'll post the page on the numbers produced and serial numbers up to 1945 hand typed below. But frankly there are some almost indecipherable - to me at this point - additional pages that I don't understand unless I get concrete examples):
Year…..Production…….Serial Number 1887 . . . 630 . . . . . . . 001 to 630 1888 . . . 522 . . . . . . . 631 to 1152 1889 . . . 783 . . . . . . 1153 to 1935 1890 . . . 778 . . . . . . 1936 to 2713 1891 . . .1011 . . . . . . 2715 to 3724 1892 . . . 959 . . . . . . 3725 to 4683 1893 . . .1078 . . . . . . 4684 to 5761 1894 . . .1234 . . . . . . 5762 to 6995 1895 . . .1112 . . . . . . 6996 to 8107 1896 . . .2132 . . . . . . 8106 to 10239 1897 . . .1493 . . . . . .10240 to 11732 1898 . . .1509 . . . . . .11733 to 13241 1899 . . . 814 . . . . . .13242 to 15055 1900 . . .2008 . . . . . .15056 to 17083 1901 . . .2014 . . . . . .17084 to 19077 1902 . . .1637 . . . . . .19078 to 20714 1903 . . .1489 . . . . . .20715 to 22203 1904 . . .1489 . . . . . .22204 to 23692 1905 . . .1798 . . . . . .23692 to 25490 1906 . . .1913 . . . . . .25491 to 27403 1907 . . .2040 . . . . . .27404 to 29443 1908 . . .2094 . . . . . .29444 to 31537 1909 . . .2014 . . . . . .31538 to 33551 1910 . . .1875 . . . . . .33552 to 35426 1911 . . .1742 . . . . . .35427 to 37168 1912 . . .1700 . . . . . .37169 to 38868 1913 . . .1000 . . . . . .38869 to 39868 1914 . . . 717 . . . . . .39869 to 40595 1915/1918…0 1919 . . . 506 . . . . . .40596 to 41091 1920 . . .1282 . . . . . .41092 to 42372 1921 . . .1306 . . . . . .42373 to 43680 1922 . . .2191 . . . . . .43681 to 45871 1923 . . . 655 . . . . . .45872 to 48526 1924 . . .2561 . . . . . .48527 to 51087 1925 . . .2809 . . . . . .51088 to 53896 1926 . . .2861 . . . . . .53897 to 56757 1927 . . .2819 . . . . . .56758 to 59576 1928 . . .2884 . . . . . .59577 to 62460 1929 . . .1367 . . . . . .62461 to 63827 1930 . . .1816 . . . . . .63828 to 65643 1931 . . .1624 . . . . . .65644 to 67267 1932 . . .3894 . . . . . .67268 to 71162 1933 . . .1538 . . . . . .71163 to 72700 1934 . . .1000 . . . . . .72701 to 73700 1935 . . . 101 . . . . . . 72701 to 72801 1936 . . . 496 . . . . . . 73802 to 74209 1937 . . .1990 . . . . . .74210 to 76199 1938 . . .1859 . . . . . .76200 to 78058 1939 . . . 368 . . . . . .78059 to 78426 1940/1945. 0
The preliminary dating of an Ideal in an above post SN 19416 (page 5,6) can now be checked. It was initially identified as pre 1900 based on chambers in CM, proofed for PP, etc. Ted commented that it was actually proofed for PT, so the date was moved to post 1900 possibly 1901. Per the above chart 19416 would have been made in 1902. The seller claimed 1906-1914.
Last edited by Argo44; 08/25/18 06:11 AM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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