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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
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Anyone who thinks Slavery was bot an issue in the mid 1800's is like an ostrich with his head buried in the sand. anyone who thinks it was the only issue is like a mole who is completely underground in his tunnel & unseeing. Abraham Lincoln himself said the War was not fought over slavery but preserving the union. He stated "IF" he could preserve the Union without freeing a single slave he would do so, "IF" it required freeing them he would do so. He actually had no concern at all for the Blac race, feeling them an inferior race who could never live on an equal basis with Whites. His solution to the problem was to export them all "OUT" of the US either to Africa or the Caribbeans. Also don't forget that while the Late War was being fought construction of the US Capitol was underway with the use "SLAVE" labor.
After South Carolina & several other states had seceded The State if Virginia sent representatives to talk with Lincoln over a short period of time. These representatives flat out told Lincoln "IF" he would follow the constitution of the US Virginia would not secede, they would support him & do their very best to bring the seceded states back in the Union. During these sessions not once was slavery mentioned, Lincoln was concerned about his "Tariff". At this point he "Federal Government's" only source of income was tariffs. A new tariff law had just been enacted which on some items raised the tariff from 13% to as much as 40%. The South was paying around 75%-80% of this tariff already. The South did not much feel like being more heavily burdened but they had not enough representatives in congress to stop it though dissent was being raised. Lincoln had vowed his full support of this tariff. Upon his election with Charleston Harbor being a major Seaport South Carolina immediately seceded. They were quickly followed by 6 other states, which one might note nearly every one had a major seaport. After Fort Sumter When Lincoln "Unconstitutionally" called upon the states to provide men & arms to "Put Down the Rebellion" & Force these 7 states back into the union 4 more states joined the Canfedercy, including the state of Virginia & my home state of Tennessee.
It is a Crying Shame that "History" has lied so much & distorted the truth, but as Confederate General Patrick Claiborne said shortly before his death in the battle of Franklin TN, He who Wins the War, Writes the History.
What is even more Shameful is the number of people, even many Confederate descendants, who have believed the "BIG LIE".
YES; I freely admit I am descended from Confederate veterans. Two of my G-Great Grand Fathers along with numerous other relatives fought for the CSA. I apologize to NO ONE for this. One of my G-Great Grandfathers fought with the 45th Tennessee Infantry, the other the Starnes McLemore 4th Tennessee Volunteer Cavalry. I am a proud member of the Sons of Confederate of Veterans, (SCV) have a battle flag in my home, previously flew a larger one from my porch but it wore out & have not yet replaced it. I will note that at our Monthly meeting we open with a prayer to the eternal God. This is followed by a Pledge of Allegiance to the US Flag, which is then followed by a salute to the battle flag. A good number of our members either are now or have served in the US Military forces. We are "NOT" a racist group. Atrocities have been committed by people carrying the US flag as well as the Confederate flag. Both were in total disrespect of the flag they were carrying & what it represented.
As to me personally I am also Not Racist. Over the years I have had a number of good friends whom I highly respected. I also have a 3rd or 4th cousin who is black. He is welcomed at our Family Reunions. I believe he is now retired but for many years he was a preacher of the True New Testament Church. I have heard him preach on several occasions & he simply preaches the Bible, nothing more, nothing less. He in fact preached the /funeral for one of my Uncles & a few years later that of his Wife, my Aunt by marriage.
Oh the "LIES" which have been swallowed over the years.
No connection to any of the above but just an example of lies from history books that many have swallowed over the years, Samuel Colt did not Invent the revolver, only improved it. His own patent claims make this perfectly clear.
Just thought it time to show there are two sides to every story & most of what is "Politically Correct" today are simply Untruths.
Miller/TN
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1 |
Anyone who thinks Slavery was bot an issue in the mid 1800's is like an ostrich with his head buried in the sand. anyone who thinks it was the only issue is like a mole who is completely underground in his tunnel & unseeing. Abraham Lincoln himself said the War was not fought over slavery but preserving the union. He stated "IF" he could preserve the Union without freeing a single slave he would do so, "IF" it required freeing them he would do so. He actually had no concern at all for the Blac race, feeling them an inferior race who could never live on an equal basis with Whites. His solution to the problem was to export them all "OUT" of the US either to Africa or the Caribbeans. Also don't forget that while the Late War was being fought construction of the US Capitol was underway with the use "SLAVE" labor.
After South Carolina & several other states had seceded The State if Virginia sent representatives to talk with Lincoln over a short period of time. These representatives flat out told Lincoln "IF" he would follow the constitution of the US Virginia would not secede, they would support him & do their very best to bring the seceded states back in the Union. During these sessions not once was slavery mentioned, Lincoln was concerned about his "Tariff". At this point he "Federal Government's" only source of income was tariffs. A new tariff law had just been enacted which on some items raised the tariff from 13% to as much as 40%. The South was paying around 75%-80% of this tariff already. The South did not much feel like being more heavily burdened but they had not enough representatives in congress to stop it though dissent was being raised. Lincoln had vowed his full support of this tariff. Upon his election with Charleston Harbor being a major Seaport South Carolina immediately seceded. They were quickly followed by 6 other states, which one might note nearly every one had a major seaport. After Fort Sumter When Lincoln "Unconstitutionally" called upon the states to provide men & arms to "Put Down the Rebellion" & Force these 7 states back into the union 4 more states joined the Canfedercy, including the state of Virginia & my home state of Tennessee.
It is a Crying Shame that "History" has lied so much & distorted the truth, but as Confederate General Patrick Claiborne said shortly before his death in the battle of Franklin TN, He who Wins the War, Writes the History.
What is even more Shameful is the number of people, even many Confederate descendants, who have believed the "BIG LIE".
YES; I freely admit I am descended from Confederate veterans. Two of my G-Great Grand Fathers along with numerous other relatives fought for the CSA. I apologize to NO ONE for this. One of my G-Great Grandfathers fought with the 45th Tennessee Infantry, the other the Starnes McLemore 4th Tennessee Volunteer Cavalry. I am a proud member of the Sons of Confederate of Veterans, (SCV) have a battle flag in my home, previously flew a larger one from my porch but it wore out & have not yet replaced it. I will note that at our Monthly meeting we open with a prayer to the eternal God. This is followed by a Pledge of Allegiance to the US Flag, which is then followed by a salute to the battle flag. A good number of our members either are now or have served in the US Military forces. We are "NOT" a racist group. Atrocities have been committed by people carrying the US flag as well as the Confederate flag. Both were in total disrespect of the flag they were carrying & what it represented.
As to me personally I am also Not Racist. Over the years I have had a number of good friends whom I highly respected. I also have a 3rd or 4th cousin who is black. He is welcomed at our Family Reunions. I believe he is now retired but for many years he was a preacher of the True New Testament Church. I have heard him preach on several occasions & he simply preaches the Bible, nothing more, nothing less. He in fact preached the /funeral for one of my Uncles & a few years later that of his Wife, my Aunt by marriage.
Oh the "LIES" which have been swallowed over the years.
No connection to any of the above but just an example of lies from history books that many have swallowed over the years, Samuel Colt did not Invent the revolver, only improved it. His own patent claims make this perfectly clear.
Just thought it time to show there are two sides to every story & most of what is "Politically Correct" today are simply Untruths.
Miller/TN
Thank you for the history lesson. While I have no issue with it some would argue that flying Confederate Battle Flag is at least as disrespectful to this great country as taking a knee at a ball game. Armistice was signed in 1865 which was very long time ago. Your side lost why can't you get over it?
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,146 Likes: 1146 |
Anyone who thinks Slavery was bot an issue in the mid 1800's is like an ostrich with his head buried in the sand. anyone who thinks it was the only issue is like a mole who is completely underground in his tunnel & unseeing. Abraham Lincoln himself said the War was not fought over slavery but preserving the union. He stated "IF" he could preserve the Union without freeing a single slave he would do so, "IF" it required freeing them he would do so. He actually had no concern at all for the Blac race, feeling them an inferior race who could never live on an equal basis with Whites. His solution to the problem was to export them all "OUT" of the US either to Africa or the Caribbeans. Also don't forget that while the Late War was being fought construction of the US Capitol was underway with the use "SLAVE" labor.
After South Carolina & several other states had seceded The State if Virginia sent representatives to talk with Lincoln over a short period of time. These representatives flat out told Lincoln "IF" he would follow the constitution of the US Virginia would not secede, they would support him & do their very best to bring the seceded states back in the Union. During these sessions not once was slavery mentioned, Lincoln was concerned about his "Tariff". At this point he "Federal Government's" only source of income was tariffs. A new tariff law had just been enacted which on some items raised the tariff from 13% to as much as 40%. The South was paying around 75%-80% of this tariff already. The South did not much feel like being more heavily burdened but they had not enough representatives in congress to stop it though dissent was being raised. Lincoln had vowed his full support of this tariff. Upon his election with Charleston Harbor being a major Seaport South Carolina immediately seceded. They were quickly followed by 6 other states, which one might note nearly every one had a major seaport. After Fort Sumter When Lincoln "Unconstitutionally" called upon the states to provide men & arms to "Put Down the Rebellion" & Force these 7 states back into the union 4 more states joined the Canfedercy, including the state of Virginia & my home state of Tennessee.
It is a Crying Shame that "History" has lied so much & distorted the truth, but as Confederate General Patrick Claiborne said shortly before his death in the battle of Franklin TN, He who Wins the War, Writes the History.
What is even more Shameful is the number of people, even many Confederate descendants, who have believed the "BIG LIE".
YES; I freely admit I am descended from Confederate veterans. Two of my G-Great Grand Fathers along with numerous other relatives fought for the CSA. I apologize to NO ONE for this. One of my G-Great Grandfathers fought with the 45th Tennessee Infantry, the other the Starnes McLemore 4th Tennessee Volunteer Cavalry. I am a proud member of the Sons of Confederate of Veterans, (SCV) have a battle flag in my home, previously flew a larger one from my porch but it wore out & have not yet replaced it. I will note that at our Monthly meeting we open with a prayer to the eternal God. This is followed by a Pledge of Allegiance to the US Flag, which is then followed by a salute to the battle flag. A good number of our members either are now or have served in the US Military forces. We are "NOT" a racist group. Atrocities have been committed by people carrying the US flag as well as the Confederate flag. Both were in total disrespect of the flag they were carrying & what it represented.
As to me personally I am also Not Racist. Over the years I have had a number of good friends whom I highly respected. I also have a 3rd or 4th cousin who is black. He is welcomed at our Family Reunions. I believe he is now retired but for many years he was a preacher of the True New Testament Church. I have heard him preach on several occasions & he simply preaches the Bible, nothing more, nothing less. He in fact preached the /funeral for one of my Uncles & a few years later that of his Wife, my Aunt by marriage.
Oh the "LIES" which have been swallowed over the years.
No connection to any of the above but just an example of lies from history books that many have swallowed over the years, Samuel Colt did not Invent the revolver, only improved it. His own patent claims make this perfectly clear.
Just thought it time to show there are two sides to every story & most of what is "Politically Correct" today are simply Untruths.
Miller/TN
+1 Thank you, Miller, for going to the effort to put those truths in writing. Jagermeister, you say you don't see what is the big deal about playing the national anthem. Would you answer one question? Did you serve the USA in the military? Are you a veteran? SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,146 Likes: 1146 |
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 709
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
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The tariff laws were very unfair. But slavery was the 400 lb gorilla. It was a good rallying and recruiting tool for the North. The South was deathly afraid of a slavery revolt after what had happened in Haiti. They needed a military to keep order. That terrible war could have been prevented if the South had freed the slaves and the North had allowed the Army to keep the peace and prevent a slave rebellion. Fools on all sides particularly among those who would not be fighting.
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Joined: Mar 2011
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,080 Likes: 466 |
To suggest that slavery played no role in the reasons for Georgia, South Carolina, Texas, Mississippi and Virginia to leave the union is to ignore the historical, written reasons they gave for secession in their Declarations and Articles of Secession. VP of the Confederacy Alexander Stephens who was opposed to secession, but followed the wishes of his state, observed in his speech in Savannah that the cornerstone of secession was the issue of slavery and the natural order was to dominate and enslave the Negro. My great-great grandfather was captured at Ft. Pulaski here in Savannah and spent a portion of the war at Fort Delaware as a prisoner. He was eventually exchanged. https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,710 Likes: 474 |
The issue of slavery was a very complex one which neither side had an answer for. It came down to money, need for cheap labor, fear of former slaves becoming too powerful, the loss of a way of life and Northern politicians running the country to their complete advantage at the cost of the South footing the bills. If the South ended up paying all the bills with no say so in the running of the country is that not much different than the reason their grandfathers rebelled against the Crown?
A vast amount of wealth was tied up in slaves and no government solution was ever considered for payment for freeing the salves. If slave owners frees their slaves they loose that value. Had the government offered to buy the slaves many owners would have been more inclined to free them. With large land holding you need lots of labor to farm it. Back then you could not just buy a larger tractor. But most slaves ended up working the land as free men. That was their job skill set and all many ever knew.
Slave prices had been in steady decline for almost 20 years. It was simple economics. Land fertility was being depleted by cotton and tobacco planting, with no fertilizer use to replenish what the crops were taking out of the soil. If crops only produced half of what they did decades before the value of labor to tend them went down. In many areas slaves did not produce enough to break even. It was certain that slavery would have died within 20 years even without the Civil War. The Civil War just caused it to occur sooner.
But in the end those who write the history get to make the history fit their viewpoint. So the economics of slavery forcing its end because it was no longer profitable is denied.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,336 Likes: 388 |
What happened here? Wasn't this discussion centered on hockey?
It was centuries before the Civil War that black Africans sold other black Africans into the slave trade. It seems that's what started this whole mess, and how they ended up here in this horrible unjust country where they have the opportunity to work hard and make millions of dollars... or to do nothing and get food, money, shelter, Obama-phones, free educations, and health care anyway. I wonder why Jagermeister, the guy who doesn't own even one lousy double gun, isn't questioning why the football players who choose to disrespect the flag don't get over that already as well. Maybe he could also tell us if more blacks died from decades of Jim Crow era lynchings, modern day shootings by Police, or from black-on-black crime?
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,146 Likes: 1146 |
Certainly slavery was an issue leading up to the WBTS. But, so many try to say it was the issue about which the whole war was fought. That is a ludicrous position that cannot be defended with either logic or facts.
Can you imagine the North going to war with the South to defend an indefensible position? According to the 1860 Census, just months before the Late Unpleasantness began, the sates that would become the Union (in the north) owned over 432,000 living and breathing slaves:
Now according to the 1860 census these were the following number of slaves in the four exsisting future border states (like I said, West Virginia wasn't a state yet and hadn't left the rest of Virginia in 1860) and DC as gathered from Shotgun's Home of the American Civil War's page on the census:
"Delaware 1,798
Dist. Columbia 3,185
Kentucky 225,483
Maryland 87,189
Missouri 114,931"
That comes out to 432,586 slaves in this part of the country in 1860. This seems to be confirmed by a chart on the 1860 census on the America's Civil War website which givesthe slave population in this area, minus DC, as follows :
"DELAWARE 1,798 (1.6%)
KENTUCKY 225,483 (19.5%)
MARYLAND 87,189 (12.7%)
MISSOURI 114,931 (9.7%)
TOTAL 429,401 (13.7%)"
Add to the first number, Kansas with 2 in 1860, Nebraska with 15 in 1860, and Utah with 29 in 1860. That raises the total to 432,632 slaves in the future Union states as of 1860.
SRH
Last edited by Stan; 10/23/17 01:21 PM.
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Posts: 4,033 Likes: 45
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2003
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I had a charter trip with a well known professional golfer back in the 80's.
Something he said to his admiring throng of fans has stuck with me.
"There are 150 million golfers in the world, and about 150 of us are making a living at it. If you like those odds, take up golf."
The numbers may have changed for that sport, but certainly the 'odds' part applies to any of them.
Professionals at any sport are exceptionally dedicated, athletically gifted, and.... lucky.
Very lucky. Anyone who would rock their own boat is an idiot.
Personally, I'd rather be out shooting than watching others play a game.
We fly the flag at the club, at full staff.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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