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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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C Man
Life is short
Quit your job.
Turn off the TV.
Go outside and play.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I'd say that we will see the stamp of Saxony w/ Crown over Crossed Sidearms transition to HAL over Crossed Sidearms around Nr. 500 in the 2nd Lindner series....
"In terms of Builders gun, assuming it is a hammerless, it would be REALLY unusual to have the crown over crossed pistol mark. Again, the last use of that mark I have recorded was in the 300/400 range. I’d love to see a photo to make sure it is not, for example, an old stock barrel on a newer gun. The Lindner barrel numbering would need to be consistent." http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post510205I have very credible data that narrows the Lindner Quality Control Stamp(LQCS) change to a serial number near/ @ / circa Nr. 450. Just a cursory data acquisition for now w/ additional info to come to light in due time w/ a direction for data mining. My question to the Charles Daly Prussia aficionados on examples that wear the Lindner Quality Control Stamp would be: In early 1893 & considering the new German proof laws, how long would it take for H.A. Lindner to procure a new stamp & what variations might we see during this transition period? Like a counselor worth his salt, I fancy asking questions to which I may already have the answer? Cheers, Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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So no takers, huh. Better phrased: I would hazard a guess that the 1st Charles Daly - H.A. Lindner sourced double wearing the Lindner Quality Control Stamp of Crossed Sidearms surmounted by HAL will be found near the 2nd series serial Nr. 450.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Just to recap, the McKinley Tariff became effective on Oktober 1st, 1890 and the Country of Origin on foreign goods imported into the U.S. of A. per the following:
"That on and after the first day of March, eighteen hundred and ninety-one, all articles of foreign manufacture, such as are usually or ordinarily marked, stamped, branded or labelled, and all packages containing such or other imported articles, shall, respectively, be plainly marked, stamped, branded, or labeled in legible English words, so as to indicate the country of their origin; and unless so marked, stamped or branded, or labeled they shall not be admitted to entry."
Lindner's wares from March 1891 foward, and more than likely that of Suhl, wore several different terms for location including Saxony, Thuringia and possibly another before they found their identity when they settled on Prussia.
On May 19th, 1892, Germany saw the Reichstag pass the new German Proof law, which was made public on June 22nd, 1892. It became effective on April 1st, 1893 and this is the reason we see the Vorrat / onhand stamp of a V surmounted by a Crown. Since Lindner's Quality Control Stamp was that of a brace of Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown, he was forced to change. This change looks to be @ the cusp of the new proof law and maybe he as just like us, a procrastinator up till the end and waited till he was obligated to do so? Anyway, the change of the Lindner Quality Control Stamp to HAL surmounted by a Crown was either in early 1893 or in April 1893 very close to Nr. 450(2nd Lindner Series), which may have a higher probability. What happens in between or betwixt the transition is the focus of the current data mining effort.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Last edited by Daryl Hallquist; 05/08/18 10:09 AM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Unfortunately it does not appear that the shift from the crown over crossed pistol mark to the HAL over crossed pistol mark was a clean one.
I noted in the database HAL marked hammerless Daly SxSs as early as serial number 245 (Daryl's Daly above which contains both the HAL notation and the traditional crown over crossed pistols.) . Others serial numbers noted with the HAL mark include 264, 270, 272, 299, 439, 458, 515). Crown marked hammerless guns include serial numbers 322, 3XX, and 597 (the highest crown marked gun in the second series recorded.) So quite a bit of overlap for a couple of years.
In addition to the way the guns were marked, the hammerless design changed considerably during this same period. Notably, the barrel lumps protruded through the bottom of the action, and the dollshead was replaced with a crossbolt in the higher numbered models. Jon S. may be able to provide additional detail here.
Ken
Last edited by Ken Georgi; 05/08/18 10:13 AM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Thanks Georgi & Mr. Hallquist.
Georgi:
Can you tell us what Modells the Crown over Crossed Sidearms were for Nrs 322, 3xx & 597? And the same for 264, 270, 272 & 299 for the HAL? I'm really focused on the Nrs. 439 - 458 wearing Crown over HAL. Or maybe if any of those Modells were or were not "Diamond Quality"?
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Here's what I'd hazard a guess on the 264, 270, 272, 299, etc. would be that they were devoid of an Lindner Quality Control Stamp for whatever reason, in production, got hungup @ the engraver, etc. & that the Lindner Quality Control Stamp of a Crown over HAL were applied in April 1893 or later.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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It took me a bit, but I finally remembered that I had two Prussian Dalys in the serial number range we are discussing down in the safe.
#347 is a Daly diamond quality model 250. It has the crown over crossed pistols.
#481 is a Daly Featherweight two-barrel set (in 20 gauge!!). It is marked with the HAL of crossed pistols.
I am with you Raimey on the hypothesis that the overlapping HAL/crown marks are likely due to the vagaries of production timelines. Unfortunately only one of the HAL guns in question (Daryls) has the model noted. When the Daly database was first started by Michael Petrov, many of the early entries only noted the serial number and maybe a few other details. Over time, additional fields were added to the database.
#270 though is noted as a "lower grade gun" and possessing the HAL. The others - 272, 299 - do not have a model provided.
On the crown-marked guns, only the 3XX gun has any details. It is noted as a "mid-grade gun."
Ken
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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 Mr. Hallquist: Not sure why the HAL 378 is restamped or exactly what the number might be. But the Lindner Quality Control Stamp was applied prior to that so I'm curious when exactly in the process that H.A. Lindner applied the Lindner Quality Control Stamp. It is possible that the example could be in the muddy Crown over Crossed Sidearms to Crown over HAL transition but it lacks the Crown over V stamp for the April 1893 stamping effort. What might be the bore of the Diamond Daly? Is there another Lindner tubeset number further up on the tubes? Cheers, Raimey rse
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