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Sidelock
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Sidelock

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Great thoughts again. Thank you. It is interesting how some people feel that faster powders like Red Dot in their mind "kick" less. I like the 28 gauge to 8 gauge analogy. I am currently loading 13.5gr of 800X in my 3/4 Oz. loads. That would be 27gr. in the 8 gauge with 1 1/2 Oz. which is the neighborhood I was thinking. I will start with 26gr with 1 1/4 Oz. of shot. I will load 1 1/2 with 27gr., then 28grains and see what they do. I wondering if 800X could be used in 4 gauge as well.......? I might have to try some of those too!


"As for me and my house we will shoot Damascus!"
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Originally Posted By: Shotgunjones

"As far as what one FEELS . . . there you get into an area that can't really be measured. But blind tests conducted with British shotshells and reported by the late British shotgun guru Gough Thomas showed that a team of shooters " . . . unanimously voted that the variety giving the least sensible (felt) recoil were those that, unknown to them, had been loaded with the fastest-burning powder."


Which is the opposite of the thoughts of every single trapshooter I used to shoot with years ago. They loaded Green Dot and PB to 'spread the recoil out over time'. Push vs. sharp kick.

I read Garwood 20 years later and just shook my head. His dissertation on tiny headspace variations making enormous differences in felt recoil is rich too.

He may have been an engineer, but his train was off the rails.



What is it they say about old trapshooters? Sooner or later, they all go to a release trigger due to a flinch?

Remember, there is some science behind what Thomas wrote. When calculating recoil, while all factors other than shot charge and velocity may be minor, you can't completely exclude them. Thus, the amount of powder used is part of the total "ejecta", along with the shot and the wad. And with fast-burning powder, you use less of it than you do with slow-burning powder. Which means--assuming everything else in the load remains the same--you should expect to feel less recoil because you've reduced the total ejecta by a few grains. So what Thomas reported is not at all counter-intuitive. Push vs sharp kick . . . would you rather have the nurse push the needle in slowly, or do it quickly?

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I always favored a faster powder for my low pressure load. 700x was my choice most of the time. Never had any noticeable variation due to temperature. Regular "Clays" was another of my powders for a low pressure load.

Last edited by Chuck H; 08/18/18 08:49 AM.
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Comparing getting a shot to recoil is like comparing apple to oranges. The needle penetrates, the guns Butt doesn't. Would you rather I place a hammer against your shoulder & slowly push on it or Draw it back & hit you with it.

That was essentially what Thomas said which was nothing but Pure Bull. He stated the only conclusion he could come to was that with the faster powder the kick was so "Fast" the shooter didn't have time to feel it. Go back & read it again for yourself.

"IF" you honestly believe that Crap I've got a Whole Bunch of stuff I'd like to sell you. Thomas was not even present at this "Blind Test", had only the powder makers word. He had no idea even as to what powders were tested.

Actual recoil & "Perceived" recoil can be, & often is, entirely different.
First time I ever fired a Colt 1911-A1 I thought its Kick was unbearable. I stupidly wasn't wearing ear protection. Shot it again the next day with ear protection, same gun, shells from the same box & it was a pussy cat. The recoil didn't change but my perception Did.

Best thing to do with Thomas' test is to throw it in the trash & forget it. His report on it was & is absolutely useless.

Being an "Engineer" sure didn't help him much in this case. As I recall he was a Civil Engineer. Understand I'm not knocking the trade, but they are trained to lay out & measure land, roads etc, not calculate recoil forces in a
gun.

Based on a 1 1/8 oz load the difference between using 20 grains of powder versus 30 grains would give a total weight difference of about 2%. I Firmly believe you best seriously Re-Think there being any Science involved at all in Thomas' report of this incident.

I may be a Tennessee Hill-Billy but I for sure AIN'T that stupid.


Miller/TN
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Originally Posted By: 2-piper

... Being an "Engineer" sure didn't help him much in this case. As I recall he was a Civil Engineer. Understand I'm not knocking the trade, but they are trained to lay out & measure land, roads etc, not calculate recoil forces in a
gun.

...



I've known many Civil Engineers, including my late father-in-law and most recently, my nephew graduated from a great Tennessee institution, Vanderbilt, with a Civil Engineering degree. A Civil Engineer from any accredited college is fully equipped to calculate recoil forces and much much more. They routinely deal with dynamic forces in their trade. Lest that building or bridge fall down.

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Originally Posted By: 2-piper
Comparing getting a shot to recoil is like comparing apple to oranges. The needle penetrates, the guns Butt doesn't. Would you rather I place a hammer against your shoulder & slowly push on it or Draw it back & hit you with it.


I vote for Miller hitting Larry with the hammer! Make that a sledge hammer.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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Total agreement Chuck, as I said I was not knocking Civil Engineers in general. Thomas sure didn't apply any of that ability in this instance though, his Conclusion was utterly ridiculous. Perhaps they get a lot more training in those fields today than when Thomas was schooled.

Simply stating one has been schooled in the highest field of Mathematics for instance doesn't impress me a lot if they say that 2+2 = 22.

Thomas simply made a big deal over this & didn't even have the facts to base his decision on. Certainly not something any "Wise Engineer" would do regardless of his field,


Miller/TN
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Yeah, not everything GT wrote was gospel.

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Burrard wrote facts, Garwood wrote novels.


"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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I'm with Chuck on 700X. As far as what engineers can and can't do, a Bloomberg writer visited last week. Her father was a field worker in bare feet, his school a slate hanging from a tree, saw a discarded application for college in Bangalore, filled it out to become civil engineer and graduated with doctorate from Southampton University in England, specializing fluid dynamics, went on to assist in design of dams, bridges, jet fighters and helicopters. I can't imagine recoil physics as beyond any engineer.

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