doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com What is a 22-219?

I have read Fred Ness' book on .22 caliber rifles, cover to cover, but have seen no reference to the 22-219, the designation stamped on one of my single shot rifles that I do not yet have in hand. Can anyone help?

Could it be a wildcat version of the .219 Zipper? I've never seen one so marked, but people did all kinds of things on the basic .30-30 family case and this could be one of them.

eightbore,
You didn't say what make the rifle is, if it is a Stevens and hammerless, it might be a Model 219. They were available in 22Hornet. Post a photo when you get it and maybe we can give better info.
Mike

Congratulations on the beautiful rifle. I was in the running for a while, but other lots soon took priority. I wondered about the caliber marking myself. My best guess is perhaps it is an attempt to denote bore diameter. There was a .223 Hornet or K Hornet recently and I suspect it was the smith's way of letting folks know it was a rimfire diameter barrel. Please share the link for others. I know they will appreciate it.

For Mike, it isn't a 219 Savage.

Thanks for complimenting my new High Wall, Thaine. Fortunately, it was the only lot I had interest in. Maybe you could do the link so I don't have to go back to school. The pictures aren't much, but Oberlies guns look a lot better in person than in pictures. Anyone else have an idea about the 22-219?

Thaine,
Yes, he PMd photos, it is obviously a nicely reworked High Wall, set up for varmint hunting. A chamber cast and slugging the barrel would show what the cartridge is, but it could be the 219 Zipper( .224" bullet) opened up to use the 22 Savage High Power bullet( .227-.228" 70 gr). This is a guess, hopefully a better guess than the 219 Stevens one.
Mike

So that all may know what we are talking about; Eightbore's new rifle.
Oberlies

Thanks for posting the pictures. Maybe I should be soliciting ideas for a caliber to rebore to if I can't identify the chamber. Description describes a less than mint bore. Anyone have a suggestion?

Do you want a sedate target rifle or a barn burner of some sort?

If it needs it, why not any of the Krag or 30-30 based cartridges. The 6mm, 25, 6.5, 7mm alternatives are all available as are larger bores. Cases are readily available and a couple of hundred should last quite a while.

That 22" barrel will influence choice some, but while shorter than normal for a single shot, it really shouldn't affect performance.

Figure what you want it to be in it's next life and go for it. However, I would shoot it with different weight bullets if you're able to load up some ammo. It may well surprise you.

Suggestion: Shoot the gun, may surprise you once you have given
it a good cleaning and shot it.

Second, if no good on shooting, have it rebored to 6mm and you most likely will have a 6mm Zipper.

Mike

Find out what it is, first, then try it. If it shoots, keep it like it is; if it doesn't, then decide what to do.
Mike

If you have it rebored, I'd probably go to something like .32-40 or .38-55 if the chamber cleans up with either.

There were a few bargains on that Auction. The Labantchni 375 was a steal in my opinion.

https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-Milita...nOnCatalog=4091

Also curious if anyone here got the Sedgley mauser .22 Hornet. lot #1047.

John

I doubt you could duplicate the engraving on that Labantchni for the price the rifle sold. Buying used custom guns sure gets you a lot more for the money than having one done.

Yup, that's a great "big" gun.

This is the one I had my eye on. If it had gone at the estimated price, it would have been a steal. https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-Milita...mation/44246963

The Griffin & Howe side mount was probably the kiss of death for that nice rifle.

It's amazing to me how many buyers shy away from a rifle fitted with it because of the additional holes drilled in the side of the action. If you never remove it, there are no additional holes is the way I look at it. No other type of mount leaves the top of the receiver so clear of obstruction for the use of iron sights when the scope is removed. I probably have a dozen of them on my rifles and have recently sold others.

I don't see the Griffin and Howe side mount as the "kiss of death". I like mine a lot and am looking for more. I just wish the dovetails were a little more interchangeable.

I wonder why they thought that hornet was a Sedgley, it did not resemble any Sedgley I have ever seen.

Barrel marking?

I was looking at Landis and wondered if it was the 22 Ackley Improved 219 Zipper or 22-219 for short?

Thanks so much. I have been tearing my library apart looking for ".22 Caliber Varmint Rifles" by Landis and can't find it. I am hoping I have a .22 Ackley Improved Zipper.

So almost a rimmed 22-250?

The .219 AI Zipper is a near ballistic clone of the .225 Winchester and reloading data for the .225 can be used for it, although I'd limit myself to loads below max, particularly in some of the less strong actions like the Winchester and Marlin lever actions and the Martini Cadet. There is also some concern that .30-30 or .25-35 brass isn't as strong as that of the .225, although I've never had that problem in a .219 AI.

Do anneal the brass before fireforming unless you want to lose a bunch of the cases to shoulder splits.

Thanks.

A chamber cast and "slugging" the barrel is still required to ID the nominal caliber.
Mike

Finally have the gun in hand. I tried a .219 Zipper case and .22 Hi Power and neither fit. I will see if Buffalo Arms will send me a couple of .219 Donaldson Wasp which is a possibility. Buffalo Arms doesn't load the Ackley Improved. I would borrow a .219 Donaldson Wasp or the mentioned Ackley Improved from "one of us" if it were offered.

Bill I have a Hi wall that is a Mirciante 22 Blue Streak, it is apparently based on a 22 hi power. I have a chamber cast I can send you if you wish, I also have a bunch of cases for a 225 R, seems to be a rimmed 250 savage on a 30-30 case. I will send one of these also, if it works you can have the cases (100+) some loaded. Also if you check Google they have Landis' book which you can read on-line or buy it on Amazon. Best bet is to make a chamber cast of your gun and mystery is solved. Email your address if you want the cases (email is in my profile)

Probably time to do a chamber cast. I'm surprised the Zipper case doesn't fit, but who knows.

I have one of Landis' books, although I'm not sure whether it's the one you need, and I'll try to find it. I also have an early book on wildcat cartridges and I'll check to see if there's a reference to this cartridge in that.

Having a cardiac catheterization procedure tomorrow morning, so I may not get back to you for a couple of days.

I believe there are something like 4 versions of the .219 Donaldson Wasp with different positions of the shoulder and different lengths of the neck. Donaldson's last version was a long body long neck. I'm also surprised the Zipper didn't fit. Please do a chamber cast and give us the measurements so we can match it up and end the suspense. It only takes a few minutes and is very easy to do. https://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=chamber+cast&ksubmit=y
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/462291/national-metallic-chamber-casting-alloy-1-2-lb

I'll 3rd, 4th, or 5th the idea of a chamber cast. It is simple and will end the agnoy and confusion. There are many variations of 22 caliber wildcats based on the 30-30 rim diameter case. I have a 1903 Springfield with a C.C. Johnson barrel that started life as a Lovell and when I acquired it was/still is chambered in .219 ICL. Do yourself a favor and get some cerosafe and cast the chamber.

Thaine

I checked both books, although I have the Ness book on the .22s and not Landis�, but there was no .22-219 listed as such. The number of .219.based wildcats was staggering. You�ll have to do a chamber cast to find out what you have.

Thanks for everyone's help. I will let you know how things progress, whether I cast the chamber or someone sends me a .219 Wasp case or cartridge. I put a nice little 10X 1 1/4" objective Unertl on the Winchester today. Now it looks like a rifle. Bill Murphy in MD.

I have had a chamber cast done and it looks like I have a .219 Donaldson Wasp according to the dimensions pictured in Landis' Woodchucks and Woodchuck Rifles, 1951, page 350. Next step is to beg one of our forum participants to sell me a box of loaded ammunition so I can testfire. Thanks.

Eightbore:

You might post your request for a box of loaded .219 Don Wasp brass on the ASSRA website. They will be someone's handloads, as, to my knowledge, the .219 Don Wasp was never a factory cartridge. A lot of the .219s were built on single shot actions and many of those guys still shoot them.

Rem

Eightbore, I can send you some brass, no charge.

Thanks for help from everyone. I had not thought to go on the ASSRA forum to look for information. Rocky Mt. Bill, thanks for the offer. I will see how the Reed ammunition works out before depleting your supply. Hopefully, this great Hiwall will be a one hole shooter. I agree with other 1885 shooters that the barrel should be longer. However, she looks much better with the skinny Unertl on top.

Chapter 10, the Reed ammunition measures exactly or smaller than the chamber cast, but won't go the last 1/16" into the chamber. Since the main cylinder of the case measures correctly, I am assuming that the area behind the neck has not been sized to the real chamber dimension. The neck diameter is safely undersize. I don't have access to a case sizer, so I would like to take advantage of Rocky Mountain Bill's offer to send me some cases to try. I will PM Bill with my address. I am anxious to shoot this gun, thought today would be the day.

I have a couple of Highwalls in .219 Wasp and each is a different chamber. Apparently there were several versions or interpretations, ......hard to know which version yours was chambered for.

Thanks for the information. However, I have read every dimension with Vernier calipers and micrometers and compared them with the cast and cant find any difference. I am thinking the neck is farther forward in the Reed cases by thousandths, or that the neck is just thousandths longer. The cast neck is damaged at the very front, so I can't prove my last suspicion. Rocky Mountain Bill may solve my problems if I can mic his cases.

Be careful whose data you go by in reloading. Harvey Donaldson was fanatical in proving that his creation would out perform the .220 Swift and some of his loads are highly suspect, especially when used in a rifle like a High Wall.

I met Harvey once at a bench rest match in Johnstown, NY, and he was a character. I was listening to a group of shooters talk when Harvey walked up. One of them asked Harvey, "Do you know what I'm shooting? An Improved Donaldson Wasp." Harvey exploded, "You can't improve a Donaldson Wasp!", provoking a gale of laughter from the group.

eightbore, some brass is on the way. If it doesn't work, I can supply a fine barrel that it does work well in, together with dies, a forearm, and more brass.

eightbore,
You can find the interference by smoking a case neck/shoulder, and head; then chamber the case as far as it will go in, pushing pretty hard. When extracted, the case will show where the smoke is rubbed off. A "magic marker" may work also. Check the rim also, for diameter or thickness.
Mike

Double what xausa said. Some published/old loads are well over 60,000 PSI. Also some loads that might be fine in Harvey's latest long body, long neck version might not be fine in the original short body one. Oddly enough, the old reloading manual published by Herter's has pressure tested loads. Mine shoots half inch groups with any number of loads.

Thanks again. Still working at it.

Several years ago a club member suddenly passed away and his wife liquidated his guns and accoutrements. I purchased a bench rest style 722 Remington in .219 DW along with dies and extensive load data he developed. He was a accomplished shooter at several disciplines and it was known to be one of his favorite rifles. I could never get that rifle to shoot for the life of me (and I tried everything I knew.) Aggravation set in and I finally sold it and gave the dies to a buddy that acquired a Hi Wall chambered for the same. It hasn't proven to set the world on fire either....

I welcome even negative comments about the caliber since I am being educated. Latest is that I beat one of the Reed cartridges into the chamber without any idea of smoking the case. I used an oak rod to do the "beating". I went out to the range, shot the cartridge, and was impressed with the sound. Now, I have to get the case out of the chamber, then I will smoke a case to identify the interference. I suspect it is the shoulder. I wonder if Reed will resize the shoulders on the remaining 19 cartridges for me? Their shipping on one box of cartridges was $12.00 plus. I wonder if they will resize the cases and charge me another $12.00 to ship them back to me? I will wait for Bill's gift cases to get here. Thanks again to all. I'm not Mike Petrov, but I'm learning.

You do know that beating a loaded case has been proven to be fatal in some instances.

If any more beating is yet to be done, use the case you just fired - without reloading it. If there is a fit problem, it should show.

Ps. Use a whiteboard marker instead of smoke. Blue works well.

Sounds like you possibly have Harvey's first version with the short body. He lengthened it when he saw that pressures were running way too high for the results he was after. Be careful.

Great news today. I was able to remove the fired case with only a couple of hits on a steel rod with a rubber hammer, no fuss, no muss. When I determine where the resistance is, I'll either borrow or purchase a sizer or, better yet, send them back to Reed for sizing. Is it safe to size loaded ammunition? The "chamber sized" round goes back into the chamber with little resistance but I wouldn't want to chamber size the other 19 rounds. Again, thanks for all the assistance for someone who is not so much a rifle guy.

eightbore,
When a case is sized, the neck is sized more than necessary and when it is pulled back over the expander, it is expanded to .002"( or there about) less than bullet diameter( to create enough neck tension to hold the bullet). If you size a loaded cartridge, it will be difficult to run the neck( with bullet seated) through the neck portion of the die, and the rear of the bullet will be sized significantly smaller than groove diameter. If you attempt this with a monolithic bullet, you will experience great difficulty.
Mike

Thanks for that information. After smoking the cases, I find that the resistence is at the beginning of the shoulder and the lower part of the main case. I think the entire case needs to be sized. Wish me luck with Reed Cartridge.

"Beating" a live round into an unknown chamber and firing it ?

A really stupid thing to do.

I had done a chamber cast and confirmed that the chamber was identical to the round. The "round" entered the chamber and failed to easily fully seat only about a 1/16". I appreciate that forcibly seating a round is not a good thing to do.

I would be tempted to pull the bullet, dump the powder, and de-prime another of those Reed cartridges. Slather the neck, shoulder, heck, the whole case with a magic marker, and push that into the chamber. Where the interference is occurring will be readily apparent, no more guesswork.

I fired a cartridge, smoked the empty, and it would not go back in. I have smoked empties and fulls. What do I do next, short of purchasing a set of sizing dies. I guess I need to do that anyhow, if I want to shoot any quantity of ammo. Bill Furguson sent me empties, and they wouldn't fit either. I guess I will purchase a set of full length sizing dies for .219 Donaldson.

Eightbore,
Check the rim/rim recess fit. If the rim recess is too tight, that could cause the problem, even with correct cases and dies. See if a case rim will fit in, upside down. Note how any radius affects the fit.
Mike

That was the first thing I did when trying to identify the case, weeks ago. The rim recess is fine. The smoke test indicates interference at the shoulder and case body.

Since the rounds you have fired or tried to load were probably sized in .219 Donaldson dies what you may have to do is send the fired brass and one that shows the problem areas (and the chamber cast) to CH4D and get his opinion on dies. Back in the day everyone was making their own chamber reamers for the .219 Donaldson. If you think your chamber is close except for a couple of tight area the other alternative, and maybe the best, is to rent a .219 Donaldson chamber reamer and touch up the chamber to what is now the accepted standard that commercial dies are set to reload to.

Lots of variance in chambers of nonfactory cartridges back in the day depending on who did the work & who made the reamer.

What you need is to have a set of custom dies made for your chamber there are several people who will do this if you Google it. They usually will require you to send several cases that have been fired in your chamber for them to work with. Since you seem reasonably certain that you are working w/a .219 Donaldson if you can borrow a std .219 Donaldson FL die & buy a sacrificial shell holder. You can shorten the shell holder .001" at a time with a lathe or even a file until the case will enter the die far enough to size the case so it enters the chamber (you can also shorten the die & accomplish the same but at more expense)

Once you have 3 cases that will enter your chamber you can load them with a moderate charge & fire them to get your fireformed cases to
make your custom die set from.

You will be shortening the shell holder on the face or top & adjusting the die down about 1/4 turn after touches the shell holder with the ram on the press fully raised. Be sure to go slowly w/the process of shortening the shell holder as you want the case sized just enough for the case to chamber w/o creating any excess headspace & risking a case separation when you fire a loaded cartridge.

Unless your chamber is cut really far off from standard dimensions this will work & if it doesn't all you are out is the cost of the modified shellholder.

The above procedure is of no help if the rim depth is not cut deep enough but you have indicated that this is not the issue.

It's not all that difficult to do & worth the effort to get what sounds like a nice rifle shooting.

Grinding the shell holder can lead to pulling the rims out, breaking the shell holder. Shortening the die is the better solution and is not really hard, I've done it several times. If you turn the loading die in a 7/8-14 threading die, it will turn true, if you center it with the tailstock center while tightening the chuck. A sharp carbide tool will cut the die, facing it off from the center out. It will "squall" a little until you get through the hard part. Don't forget to radius and polish it at the end. This may be all you need to do to be able to use the standard dies. If you make the die a little shorter, you can "fine adjust" it to fit the chamber.
Mike