doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DIY Gunsmithing @ doublegunshop.com Questions about TIG welding for guns

Is a machine like this acceptable for the type welding one would do when building up a barrel hook on a doublegun, and other very small tasks where you want to limit the heat buildup?

I'm not new to welding in general, and have a big Miller Bobcat AC/DC stick welder/generator in my farm shop, with a "suitcase" MIG welder attachment, but am interested in learning to do the small, tedious welds necessary for restoration and repairs on doubles. So, no deep penetrating welds would ever be called upon to be done with the little TIG welder in my gun shop.

Thanks for any and all experienced replies.

https://www.eastwood.com/tig200acdc.html

SRH

The heat control afforded with TIG is best for gun parts. If you have the correct wire you can even have the weld hard enough to do sears without having to re-heat treat. Chopper lump barrels can be a problem though. Get a couple junk barrels and weld and grind. The more beads you run the better, just like anything else. Good luck!

I've never used an Eastwood TIG but the reviews sound mostly favorable. Most of the complaints seem centered around welding thicker aluminum, which takes higher amperages and pure tungstens. You will be amazed what you can do with a TIG welder and very small tungstens and gas nozzles. Having the high frequency start is much nicer than scratch starting, and keeps the tungstens needle sharp for a much longer time, so long as you can keep the tip off the work and out of the puddle. I remember how I stressed about tackling a job on a broken trigger guard on a nicely engraved Hermann Eichhorn German sidelock 16 gauge gun. It was broken right across the screw hole at the back of the tang, and I thought it wouldn't be possible to repair without having the added expense of finding an engraver to repair the engraving that was very near the break on either side. I used a 5/8" thick piece of copper ground to the exact shape to clamp the broken pieces to, and to serve as a heat sink. I welded the front side with the engraving first, and was able to repair the break without touching the engraving at all. I then ground and dressed the repaired break with fine stones and carefully recut the countersink for the screw. Then I did the back side, and was pleasantly surprised when the heat colors on the already finished front side blended very nicely with the existing case colors on the guard.

This job was done with a large industrial three phase Miller TIG, but the fine work was possible by using the smallest collets, tungstens, and gas nozzles we had, and adjusting the current accordingly. There is a learning curve, and it helps to know a good tool and die welder who can show you the ropes for precision welds. I was lucky to have a good instructor, and was paid to learn and practice at work. A dedicated stone just for grinding tungstens is a must to avoid contamination. An auto darkening hood makes life easier too, to be able to see exactly where you are when you start the arc on precision work. If you can do precise welds in sheet metal with an oxy-acetylene gas welding torch and very small tips, the transition to TIG welding will be easy. The process is very similar except that you are using an electric arc instead of a flame, and you have very clean welds with no scale due to the shielding gas.

Thanks, Keith. I learned to weld in a college course. The first thing he made us learn was how to butt weld cast iron with an oxy-acetylene torch and a mild steel filler rod. So, I have the basic understanding of how to use filler rods. Plus, I've done tons of brazing on the farm over the years with an oxy-acetylene torch. This looks like the same basic procedure except the heat is from the tungsten electrode and can be controlled so much better and so much more precisely. Looks like the learning curve might be getting the hang of using the foot pedal to control the heat/arc.

I could add it to my big Miller out in the farm shop, but I want to be able to do it in a little better environment in my heated/cooled gun shop.

Running off 240V it should be plenty big enough to do anything I'd want to do on guns. One video I watched told about using a .020" tungsten electrode and getting the amps down below 5 to do "micro-welding".

I appreciate the input. SRH

Thanks, Mark II.

SRH

At that price point you might also consider an Everlast.

https://www.everlastgenerators.com/catalog-tig

My friend was in a similar situation, giant Miller in the shop but, in need of something more portable. He picked up an Everlast (mostly for stick welding). We recently welded up a bunch of exposed architectural steel for his home renovation. The Everlast is okay. We used the Miller whenever possible. We lift start. Weld quality aside, TIG is nice when you don't want to make a giant mess. We did a lot of welding inside the house.

Do you really need an AC machine?

What I need is a TIG machine for my little shop that is suitable for welding up barrel hooks, rib extensions, screw holes in ribs, etc. I'm sick and tired of sending barrels out to be fitted to actions and having them come back with one barrel making contact with the breech face and seeing .003" daylight on the other side...................... at best. I'm going to learn to do this job myself, using a milling machine for the primary cut on the hook. In order to do this right I need to be able to weld the hook after setting up the barrels in a fixture, and not have to mess with the mill until I get the hook welded and put back in the fixture.

I don't have a mill, but a close friend and neighbor does. If I can set up the barrels in the fixture, indicate everything, take them out and weld the hook, then put them back in friend's mill the same day and make the plunge cut, I can do the rest of the minor filing to fit them. This eliminates sending the barrels off to have the hook welded.

A small machine like the Eastwood or the Everlast seems like a good way to go, but I'm still open to suggestions. I certainly cannot justify a laser welder for my hobby work.

SRH

Tell me more about the reasons for DC only in the kind of work I will use it for, please.

SRH

Stan,
Instead of welding the hook, have you tried replacing the hinge pin?
Mike

Stan,

BIG DISCLAIMER: My only formal welding education pertains to structural steel. I can tell you how to TIG pipes together but that�s about it.

Anyway, most all steel welding is DC. The only AC steel application I regularly see specified is welding heavy plates. The penetration from AC with high current happens to work out better for that application. There are probably other applications where AC is better but, I�m not aware of them. And cheap welders. Those are AC only, which is why they sound funny, splatter, and generally suck.

The AC setting on a welder is primarily for aluminum. Maybe you don�t need that.

If you're buying any set it'd be worth finding out where the internal components are made. Many makes use far east parts which are not reliable.
Don't be tempted to buy a scratch start set.
Miller and Lincoln seem to be the favourites on your side of the pond.
An Ac Dc set is great if you'll be welding alloys but a DC only set will save you a lot of money if you only want to weld steels.
Smaller torches such as wp17 and wp9 make life loads easier for more intricate stuff.
Perspex gas lenses that let you see more around the electrode are good but not a necessity, you can stick the electrode out far enough to see what's happening if your gas supply is set right.
Prepare to find out your eyesight isn't as good as it once was, 2.5 or 3 mag reading glasses or 'cheater lenses' that clip into your shield will sort that out though.
Choosing one can be a minefield, I bought a Brit assembled set from a firm over here called R-tech. They use Siemens components and give good guarantees. I've gotta say it's been fantastic having one of my own rather than farming out jobs. Lots of practice has paid off and parts which used to be fit for the bin can now be fixed as good as new.
Good luck with your search.

The pressing job right now is a set of 32" NOS Fox barrels that had never been fitted to a gun by Fox. A file or stone had never had never touched the hook when I got them. Chambers cut, chokes cut, rib matted, ejectors fitted, barrels roll stamped, never blued. I sent them off to a renowned doublegun smith out west to have them fitted to a Fox that has already got a set of 30" barrels. He ruined the hook and when it came back it had maybe 50% contact with the breech face on the right barrel, and none on the left. The hook cut was not circular, but in a long oval, just screwed up.

After some time, I sent it to another doublegun man who advertises that he fits barrels to actions. He welded the hook and "fitted" them. When I got them back there was the same problem. Right barrel on face, left barrel off by at least .003", top to bottom. A good Fox hinge pin is right on .375". A good, clean .375" drill was pressed into the hook and compared to a machinist's rule laid snugly cross the breech face of the barrels. It revealed that the hook was filed way out of square, resulting in the problem. It has to be corrected by welding, or it will never fit properly. You can easily see that the cut on the hook is canted.



I'm sick and tired of paying people who claim they can do something and can't. When they send me a mess like this, I won't even call them and tell them it's screwed up because they will want me to send it back so they can do it over, and that ain't happening. They've already showed me what they are capable of.

I'm going to learn to do this myself, and am making preparations to get the necessary equipment to do it. I plan to build a fixture to hold a set of barrels on a mill table, so that I can set them up with a proper sized pin. Then, I will take them out and weld the hook without moving a thing on the fixture. Next, I will replace the barrels in the fixture, put in a plunge cutting mill, make a few thousandths adjustment to the location, and make a plunge cut to cut a perfect circular cut, leaving just a tiny bit to be removed by file or stone to smoke it in properly.

Thanks for the suggestion, Der Ami. But, in this particular case, that's not the issue. I appreciate the question, tho'.

SRH

Thanks for the suggestions, Nick. C

All points I will give consideration.

SRH

Stan,

Consider taking a class from Dennis Potter. He will show you the correct method. Best teacher in this field I have encountered.
Steve

S

Where and when does he hold his classes, Steve?

SRH

Stan, Dennis held his class at the summer classes in Trinidad ,Co but their schedule is out and the class is not listed.

Fitting "new old stock " barrels can be full of pit falls. Hook may be cut too high or too low, fire pins may not be concentric with chamber centers, out of square breach and lump, 4 end loop issues to name a few.

At the point you are at I would check to see if FPs hit center of primers. If so I would put temporary shim on the hook to set the barrels back enough too smoke fit them tight with good contact to the face. Then remove the shim , build up the hook and smoke fit .

Working both ends to the middle will give you results like you have.

If FPs don't center on primers that would need to be addressed 1st and is whole other issue.

Others may have other ideas but this is how I would go about it.

Thank you, Mark. I had already looked and seen that there wasn't a class listed for next summer, by Dennis or in gunfitting. Maybe 2020.

Thanks for the other information as well. I will check as soon as I can to see if the strikers are hitting dead center. I think they are going to be very close, though, judging by the way the exterior of the barrels fit the breech. The canted cut on the hook causes the right barrel to be off face a little without the forend in place. But, when the f/end is in place it pulls it away and causes the off face barrel to be reversed. In that case, it is the right barrel that is on face and the left that is off.

I think the cut needs to be trued up so that it is dead parallel to the breech faces before I shim and smoke fit the breech faces. Otherwise I'm still going to be "blowing smoke", and really making no progress.

SRH

Stan,
When the hinge pin is replaced, it would be replaced with a larger diameter one to take up the wear( or in the case of your barrels abuse). The fitting of the hook to the hinge pin would be done by "Spot" and "scrape". If the barrels are canted, it wouldn't hurt to check the lugs for fit in the receiver, they shouldn't be able to close canted. There is no doubt that you are better with a mill, than I (everybody is better); but if I tried to straighten this problem out with a mill, I would have it so screwed up, I couldn't sell it for scrap iron. With a scraper, you can take less and take it in a limited area, where the smoke or Prussian blue tells you to take it.
Mike

Stan, don't assume anything is square , parallel or perpendicular on the original gun. Have you checked the original barrels to see how they compare?

Mike, the barrels aren't canted when they close. The cut on the hook is what is canted, badly. What this amounts to is that only a small portion of the hook bearing surface is actually contacting the pin, and only on one side. It wouldn't last 'til the water gets hot, with a lot of shooting.

The mill will only be used to get the cut "close", to hog out most of the excess weld, and establish the proper position of it. The rest will be done as you describe, but I prefer using my little kerosene lamp to smoke the surfaces, as opposed to Prussian blue.



Mark, the firing pins hit dead center on both barrels, so that is not an issue. And, the original barrel set has the hook cut perfectly square, or parallel with the breech faces of the barrels. I checked them in the exact same way I checked the new set shown in the picture.

Thanks to all for the great info and pertinent questions. I called a friend a few minutes ago who teaches welding at a local technical school campus. He said I can sign up for the continuing education course for tig and he will show me the ropes concerning it. He says they have some of the small machines like I would use for delicate work, micro-tigging, as it were. Things are coming together.

SRH

Interesting thread Stan. Thanks!

Stan, I had a little training and experience with gas and stick welding before I got my TIG. I muddled around with the TIG but it did not come together until I took the welding for gunsmith class at Trinidad. When I had free time I welded up hooks on a few junk barrels I brought then filed them off with a rat tail file and repeated. If you need some junk barrels to play with let me know I would be happy to send you some.

My welder is a small Miller DC suit case model that is lift start.

If it's okay with you Stan, would you comment later on the general type of machinery and settings that might be good to look into?

Stan, something I'd forgotten to mention, a set which is compatible with a foot pedal is a huge advantage. If things get too hot you can back off the pedal and lower the amps and vice versa. It's like an accelerator pedal in a car. It makes life easier .

Thank you so much, Mark. I have one set of junked barrels I can practice on. If I need any more I'll give you a ring. I really appreciate it.



I certainly will, Craig. It will most likely be as soon after the holiday season as I can arrange it. Remind me, please, if I forget.



Any move I make towards purchasing a TIG machine would definitely be in the direction of a unit with a foot control. The link I provided on my first post in this thread is a model that has a foot control, and high frequency start.

Thanks so much to you all for the discussion and the information.

SRH

Agree 100%- when I worked full-time in the trade, we didn't have the auto darkening lenses for our welding hoods- a couple of other tips, FWIW. Never grind your tungsten- 2% Thoria for steel and ferrous metals, to a sharp pencil point- a blunt tip is best, and always keep a small (4-5" size grinder with a clean wheel just for grinding the tungsten electrodes-- warm up the tungsten just prior to running your root pass on a clean block of copper If you are getting arc blow, even with a soft start and a foot pedal rheostat features, check your ground connection. (I use a Miller Gold Star 300 AMP AC-DC TIG welder, and Linde Water cooled torches in our shop-- and over the past 45 years have welded- stainless in both 300 and 400 ASI grades, alloyed and HSLA fabrication steels, and all 3 of the common grades of toll & die steels- air, water and oil hardening.

TIG and now plasma have revolutionized the gunsmithing business, as far as salvaging parts worn from years of usage-- back in the Jack O'Connor era, such techniques were just getting underway.

Thanks, Francis. Good to see you're still above room temperature.

Turns out the welding instructor at the tech school about 25 miles from me is a friend and one of my landlords. He told me to sign up for a class after we finished gathering the crop and he would teach me all I wanted to learn about TIG welding at the tech school, night class.

SRH

Thank you, Stan-and a Merry Christmas to you and yours. May I ask where you are in my favorite State in Dixie? Are your crops- peanuts by chance? One way I get access to private farms in Central MI is by my welding skills- 95% of my farm friends have a Lincoln 220 Amp. AC or AC/DC red "buzz box" welder, but if they are busy planting or harvesting crops and need a repair job done, I am glad to do it. So--do you have a arc welder, and possibly a Oxy-fuel torch set at your disposal, or are you a "newbie" to the welding trade? Just wondering?

As a Marine, I was stationed Stateside, in Jacksonville.N.C.-never in your great home State. My father was invited to quail hunt near Thomasville in the 1960's (when I was shooting a M-1 on the rifle range) and he thought that was "top drawer" bird hunting. We don't have a legal dove season here, and quail are as scarce as honest politicians-- my mainstay "dove shooting" is barn pigeons here nowadays- one of many reasons why I befriend farmers year-round.

Thanks for your kind reply- RWTF

I am just about an hour south of Augusta, home of the Masters Golf Tournament, and live about 3 minutes from the Savannah River. My main crops are peanuts and cotton, with some irrigated corn thrown in for a good rotational crop when the price is good enough.

I've been welding with the obligatory "hot box" AC stick welder for 45 years. Still use it for easy, quick work, bit I've got a Miller Bobcat with an Onan powering it, in the shop, too. And, a suitcase wire welder I can hook up to it, with shielding gas. Of course, the old torch is at ready. I don't see how man farms without an oxygen-acetylene torch.

The desire to learn TIG welding has it's roots in wanting to be able to do precise buildups on barrel hooks, and learning to refit them properly myself. Doing this job well is an extremely exacting task, and some of the best fitters sometimes take more than one try to get it right, and they're not satisfied unless it is really right. I don't have the words to express my respect for good barrel fitters. They are on another "plane", IMO.

SRH

I "lucked into"a Lincoln 250 AC/DC welding machine, with a 12 HP. Onan engine, and before the electric start feature 12 volt battery was offered, they had a spring loaded hand lever you "cocked" and then released by a ratchet device- twin cylinders, and like a Kohler, a cast iron block, like a Continental Red Seal on a Lincoln SA-200 portable welder, they'll run forever, or darn near that.

I sold a few older shotguns and bought a near mint restored JD 520- with a Woods Bush Hog-- I love the sound of those older JD opposed twin-- rpm maxed at about 1250, but torque until Hell won't have it-- I am installing a front blade, with hydraulic lift, in case we get another heavy snowfall Winter--

I usually run Lincoln stick rods- Not a big fan of MIG for "out-of-position welding, especially uphill, as with 7018-- But for 90% of the "on the farm job" 6011 for rust, mud and/or cow poop that you cannot always remove prior to welding, and 6013 for cleaner steels- 7018 for alloy steels, and Lincoln 7016-ELC for stainless and alloyed steels- Don't waste your $ on those "miracle rods" like Eutetic used to sell-- I have welded 300 series stainless "all day long" with that rod, usually in 3/32", to maintain a lower heat input--

When you get into TIG welding full time, you'll want to use Tempilsticks to monitor pre and inter-pass temperatures of the parent metal, and use asbestos bags to wrap for post-weld temperature drop- avoiding thermal shock which can result in cracking- Also copper chill plates, and one other "tip"-- 90% of the TIG work I do in our shop is on a bench-- Make sure you wear a blue cotton shirt tightly buttoned up at the neck, plus whatever coat, jacket or even apron you prefer- Those intense arc rays can burn your neck area like a Maine Lobster at a clam bake.

I have an old hunting pal from MI that moved to "Jawja" 5-6 years ago, he lives in Canton, GA. He wants us to stop over on our next trip down to Florida, to visit my wife's older sister, who lives with her husband in Venice. We drive down I-75, love the Atlanta area traffic-- Her husband is an avid golfer, so knows the Augusta area from following the Masters Tournament each April.

If you would like, I can let you know if we are going down in the Spring of 2019, and perhaps we can stop by and say "Howdy"-- I think about Michigan's mess-up about getting a legal dove season, then I read your posts and see the pictures of your dove hunts, and wish we had such a season on the "coo-coo-mourners", as the late T. Nash Buckingham once named them.

In my George B. Evans book- "The Best of Nash Buckingham" my favorite chapter is his on "The Dove", and I believe his last hunting trip was for doves, at nearing age 90.

Happy Holidays-to you and all yours too!! RWTF