doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Best Quality gun definition

The gun writer Michael McIntosh was one of the first to introduce to us to, as well as reinforce what the attributes of a "Best Quality" shotgun MUST have in order to be truly best quality.

Gun dealers in the United Kingdom did not need this reinforcement by McIntosh as they had never forgotten the meaning of a best quality gun. Some gun sellers in the USA may not know the attributes of a best quality gun and only go by what the actual owner of the gun has told them; and maybe it is appropriate for all of you who have educated yourselves to educate them as well as the gun buying public who also may be naive in this regard.

Recently there was a discussion on this website/forum about a Holland & Holland steel barreled hammergun that was advertised on Gun Broker (789512101) as best quality, which the photos showed it clearly was not. The gun was a well made Birmingham made Holland & Holland hammergun with "Dovetail" brazed lump barrels and about 75+% engraving coverage. To my mind it was a second maybe a third quality very good and loveley gun that sold for $6,000.00. 15 years ago it would have sold for twice that amount. In this case, as the late Michael McIntosh formerly reinforced in our minds, a UK gun with dove tail barrels is not a "Best Quality" gun. That this gun was not a best quality gun was not that it was made in Birmingham, but that it did not have the attributes of a best quality gun. It should be noted that Birmingham could and did produce best quality guns equal to London made guns and the best quality guns of the London gun retailer William Evans are examples. The Midland Gun Company of Birmingham best quality London Pattern guns are a joy to behold as another example.

It should also be noted that a London or Birmingham made gun with chopper lump barrels (one of the attributes that a best quality gun "MUST" have--with the exception of damascus dovetail lump barrels) does not automatically make it a best quality gun. For decades Holland & Holland made a second quality SLE in their London workshops with chopper lump barrels.

A discussion is taking place in the For Sale section of this website about another Birmingham made hammergun with a London name that is listed on Gun Broker as best quality. It is without doubt a most beautiful example of the type of high quality work that was done in Birmingham for the London gun trade and a gun that I would be proud to own. However it is not a Best Quality gun as it has steel Dovetail barrels and appears to have a Hackett latch. I suspect the seller of this gun is uninformed of the attributes of best quality guns and does not know that the gun has dovetail barrels and does not know how to identify the difference between chopper lump and dovetail barrels, and further worded the description of the gun as the owner provided details.

Laissez l�acheteur s�instruire, puis m�fiez-vous.

A little long winded.

Best quality guns can and do have dovetail lump barrels. There are many Damascus barreled best quality guns out there...and they�re pretty much all dovetail lump with the exception of a very little known and rare patent of chopper lumping two Damascus tubes.

Another load of crap is a best quality gun had to be stocked to the fences...again..totally untrue. Boss didn�t stock to the fences for a good while.

Education is key here.

Yes, the exception is damascus barrels, I will point that out. Thank you.

The 'dove-tail' versus 'chopperlump' debate continues unabated I see!
Does one consider a 1st type (pre 1893-ish) H&H Royal a best gun. I certainly would and I have never seen one with chopperlump barrels that are definitely fitted as original! And I have worked on/sold quite a few!

This is like the 'thru-lump', 'stocked to the fences', fully engraved definitions: all have notable exceptions. Each maker defined their own 'Best Gun' specification. Yes, there are general rules but I have learnt the hard way that making generalisations about ANYTHING in the British gun trade is asking to be shot down!!

Five or six features, all seen on one example, does not a best gun make.

Best,

Ted

Yes Toby, the barrel debate of the time frame of which you outline is a "Sticky Wicket". And as Lefusil pointed out debate on the stocked to the fences. To my mind however, the time frame of which the hammergun in this discussion was made chopper lump barrels became a definite symbol of what constituted best quality gun.

I for one consider those beautiful H&H Royals of pre-1893 with the semi stepped lockplates best quality guns.

HOWEVER, there is one issue that troubles my mind about the description of this gun and that is the proof marks list "not for ball" which would indicate that the barrels were proofed much earlier than the c.1900 that the seller has listed for the time frame of the gun.

If the gun indeed was built in the time frame of "not for ball", barrel notation(1874-1887) then all my chopper lump barrel comments are for naught and I will discount the Hacket latch issue and the gun is indeed a best quality gun of that time period---- just one more of the "Education" points that gun buyers need to know.

If you�re talking about the Reilly hammer gun.... in my opinion it is most definitely NOT a best quality gun. I have seen very few if any Reilly�s that were built to a �best� gun level....

AND the gun dealer that put in the sale section jacked up the price $6000.00 since he first posted it.

M. LeF. Curious about which Reilly hammer gun you're talking about. I went through all 300 records I've saved. There only one Reilly which claimed to be "Best quality gun" (SN 24365) There are a number advertised as having "best foliate engraving," But clearly there are a couple of extant guns that have to be "Best guns."

There is a gold-wash gun SN 12532 which may have been made for the 1862 London World's Fair (although nothing in the advert claims it is a "best gun"). (Ted, I know you don't like gold on guns).



There is 16139, a gold washed double featured in DGJ and written about by Douglas Tate (1870) (no claim it is a "best gun.")



And 25161 (1883), given as a prize by the King of Spain, again no claim that it was a "best gun."



There are a few more....but again would be curious about any Reilly "best gun" which turns up.

Try and keep up Argo ...we�re discussing the Reilly listed in the for sale section.