doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com UNUSUAL SIGHTING

Can anyone enlighten me as to the possible purpose of a flip up sight on the top lever of a T Page Wood 12ga. box lock? Front sight is a standard bead.

Originally a 'ball and shot' gun?

Older shooter whose eyes went bad. A sight like that will do much to bring the front bead and target into focus.

Or it is not a sight at all and only a place to install a cord
to allow one to break open the gun, if the person has hand issues.

I'd lean towards it being a sight, too. I think if it was for some sort of lanyard the rear of the top lever would have just been pierced from side to side, creating a hole, instead of creating a flip up jobbie.

'Tis true that an aperture sharpens the focus, but it is usually in the range of the front sight, not way out at the target, and especially so for an aperture this large. The smaller the aperture the greater the depth of field in clarity. Here's a good article on how this works, and the parallax suppression effect of an aperture sight. The effect of making the front bead clearer would only work against good shotgunning, because the focus should never be on the bead, or muzzle, but on the bird.

Strange deal on a break open gun, but as has been said here many times before, in other contexts, one could have just about any contraption one wanted on a gun if willing to pay the price.

http://dougkerr.net/Pumpkin/articles/Aperture_Sight.pdf

SRH

Looks like a peep sight to me.
Many such sights are found on older double rifles. It is not uncommon for the sight to pop up from the tang rather than the action opening lever. Here is a link to a rather elaborate such Sauer rifle:

https://www.walterborg.se/sv/auktion/auktion/h17/dubbelstudsare/4655_1

sure these are mentioned in greeners bible for longer range shooting - never seen one and couldn't comment on its effectiveness but i've certainly seen drawings.

Most likely.

I would go along with the Ball & Shot idea. It would be flipped up & used for Ball & down thus unused for shot.

It is true that small apertures increase the depth of field of the focus, but equally true they Dim the visibility. Very small apertures are primarily for use on target guns under good light conditions, in the Field, the bigger ones are better.

I was never good with open sights, but successfully squirrel hunted for several years with a .22 equipped with the old Williams 5D sight. I would sight in with the little hole, then screw it out & just use the large threaded hole for hunting. It shot to the same place but gave one much better sighting in the early morning or late afternoon under low light conditions when the squirrels were most active.

Also, the closer to ones eye the peep is the better. To use one on the opening lever though it would need to be on a gun which the lever was always centered. On a gun with wear compensating bolts where the lever goes left in compensating the point of impact would change with lever position.

Never thought of that after some wear a fellow would have to do some Kentucky windage.

I bet they fired the guy that thought it up.

As a rear sight it's going to be off as the gun wears, hell, toplevers don't always return to the same place on the same day...

now jOe, hits ware not wear...once agin you reveals yo self to be ah ridge runnin east tenn galvinized yankee...

People lose teeth talking like that, ed.

Pretty sure it�s where, too.


__________________________
True blue unreconstructed Yankee smart aZz
https://youtu.be/-9fdwMZXcAY

roll tide roll...

tigers 7...

tide 7...

life is good...

After having more time to consider this contraption I believe there is no way it could function, as a true aperture sight does, to sharpen focus and extend field. The hole in it is simply too big, and the device is too far from the eye. It would never do anything to help aging eyes focus on anything useful to a shotgunner.

For an aperture sight to work it's "magic" the aperture itself has to be much smaller than that, and nearer the eye. I, like Miller, have screwed the "peep" disc out and used the threaded hole for an aperture in low light, but when you do that you lose much of the clarification that you get with a small aperture and good light. You gain the ability to use it in low light, but it is a trade-off. That clarification is the "magic" I am referring to.

SRH

tigers 28...

tide 16...

issue is in doubt...

I find the same Stan, "ghost ring" sights don't have enough metal around the aperture to clarify, I need a large disc with small hole...

well ok...but remember guys...a shotgon is not a rifle...you don aim hit...you point hit...

The first thing I thought was that's way too large an aperture to be any good. Maybe though, if the front sight is a round shotgun bead, the sight picture looks okay in actual use. Even without wear, that idea had to be for a customer that was looking gadgets rather than consistency. Interesting nonetheless.

half time...

tigers 31...

tide 16...

wood luv to hear watt coach saban has to say to the men in the locker room...

I have several doubles on which the top lever "Always", stops at the center position. I would venture to say that even though at least three of these are at least 100 years old they would still hit to the same point they did when new assuming the same load was used. Two of these have no bolt wear compensation, though they still bolt up tight. The other, an early Lefever has compensation but it is separate & apart from the top lever.

On the assumption this was a ball & shot, gun I "Personally" would much prefer this large hole to one of those itty bitty holes. Believe what you will, it is well documented the place for a small aperture is on the target range, not in the woods. The biggest problem most have is not the lack of ability to focus on the front sight but the ability to focus on Both the Front & Rear sights. at the same time. The peep, even with the large hole eliminates having to focus on the rear., you just look through it.

tigers 37...

tide 16...

hit don look good...

Only conversation here Miller. I think the large opening is intended for hunting. But, the thin ring and dark color might be difficult to pick up without the luxury of time and concentration that would be easier to come by on the target range. Also assuming it's intended for ball, that doesn't appear to be an intuitive sight for short range, quick, reflexive shooting.

When discussing the proper use of the front and rear sight along with the target, it doesn't make sense to me to intentionally move the windage every two shots. Subjectively, I don't believe all top levers have such positive stops. No big deal, I'm kinda enjoying the tide get rolled.

oh well, it was clemson's turn...have at erm agin next year...

anyway, what is the purpose of a ghost ring sight on a shotgun? any value on a skeet gun?

Ed did they just left you out again ?



Pssss...Ed. hear tell it's okay for gun dealers to sell guns in the sale section.

I'd like to see some of your guns in there Ed.

What say Ed...

You're awful quiet they lock you back in the funny farm ?

Actually, there is a type of aperture sight called a ghost ring sight which has a large aperture. They are primarily used for hunting because they are much faster and easier to acquire the target in hunting situations such as running game or low light. They are not as precise as a target aperture, but the eye naturally centers the front sight bead in the center of any size aperture, so they tend to be more precise than many standard open sights. The position of this "sight" is not much different than many tang mounted sights. And it does provide a longer sighting radius than a barrel mounted open sight would. Also, an aperture sight with a large enough hole helps aging eyes to focus on the front bead. Focus on a small distant object, then look at the same object through a pinhole poked in a piece of cardstock to see this effect.

As Miller noted, it would require a top lever system that returned to center so it wouldn't gradually change windage as the locking bolt surfaces wore over time.

I've shot some awful small 100 yard groups with a Lyman 48 (with no aperature) on a Sedgly Springfield I used to own and with the big peep sight on my left hand Rock River AR.

What caliber is your LH RR AR upper? Mine is 458 SOCOM.

SRH

Mine is a left hand .223 operator elite...scary acurate. It's sighted in and ready to go. I hope to never shoot it again.

I was aware of the ghost ring aperture sight, keith. My use of the threaded ring for a Merit disc, or other aperture disc with a small hole, approximates that. But, it negates the sharpening of focus and extension of field that a very small aperture causes to occur. That was my point. And, I disagree about the distance from the eye. Too many years of shooting "peep sights" have proven this to me. It needs to be very near the eye to get the full benefit of visual sharpening. That gizmo on the top lever won't do it, IMO.

Ghost sights are a compromise, at best, and best used for hunting and quick shots.

SRH

I do believe I said the ghost ring sight is best for hunting for use on running game or in lower light conditions. A very small target aperture may be totally useless under those conditions. This contraption the end of a top lever is even more of a compromise than a well designed ghost ring, but certainly could give more precise sighting than simply pointing a front bead when hunting at modest ranges with slugs or buckshot. It is an interesting variation, but I don't think it will ever put Lyman out of business. You are certainly correct that there is a point where an aperture becomes too large to provide a focusing of light rays.

I would think it couldn't be much bigger...

Has everyone forgot the reason the peep sight works so well.
It has nothing to do with focus or visual sharpness on the aperture and everything to do with the eyes natural tendency to center something in a circle.

Stan I'm not sure why you're so dead set that this will not work when for years Winchesters lever actions had flip up peeps on the action tang two or three inches behind the hammer. No doubt who ever made this thought it worked.

Nope. That's only part of the reason. The visual acuity and the parallax free nature of it is the rest, and for aging eyes .........the main reason. Look through as set of irons with a notch and post and notice the blurriness of the front post. Then look through an aperture sight at the same size post on the same length barrel and you will readily see for yourself how much sharper the front sight is through the aperture. Rifle and pistol shooters have to maintain sharp focus on the front sight as the shot is triggered. That is the wing shooter's anathema. Do that with a shotgun on a bird and you will shoot behind it every time. And THAT is why I think it's useless on a shotgun. But then, maybe the gun was built for a tUrkey hunter, or someone else who shoots sitting game. Still a stupid idea to have it on a moveable part of the gun like the top lever.

Take time to read the explanation of how that works, in the article I linked to earlier in the thread. It's not that long, and it's well written.

SRH

The reason the front sight is so much sharper is because that's the only part you focus on.

I don't use sights other than a bead on any shotgun....been there tried that nonsense.

You should live a little and take the aperture out of your peep sight and try the big hole.
I shot squirrels for years with a model 75 Winchester using the big hole.

Stan did you miss the second post of this thread ?

Nope. I don't put much stock in questions answering questions.



Did you miss this post of mine earlier in this thread?



Evidently.

SRH

Maybe it's just a reminder to keep your head down on the stock.

40,

Any chance of a picture of the flats? It's possible that could throw some light on the subject. "non pour balle" or "not for ball" on the barrels would certainly clear the question up pretty quick I imagine. How is the gun choked?

Not to throw more questions into the mix, but could a ghost ring on the top lever be used with buck shot to any positive effect? I have a defense shotgun with a ghost ring for buck shot, but again it is not mounted on the lever (its a pump anyways) but on the receiver top.

Probably one of the many gadgets used to help train people to keep a consistent hold with their gun. It wouldn't need to be as precise as a rifle peep sight but may help someone keep their head/eye in a position where they're looking in the same direction as the rib is running.
A bit like the clip on blinds or blanks used to make a person use one or other eye every time the put the gun to their shoulder.

Good point, Nick. You may well be right including the use of the word "gadget".

SRH