March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
6 members (AZMike, jcn, battle, Jim H., Lloyd3, Gerry Addison), 831 guests, and 6 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,374
Posts544,017
Members14,391
Most Online1,258
Mar 29th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 378
keith Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 378
I bought a tin box of Stevens 44 1/2 castings at a gun show a couple weeks ago. There was only a hand written note that had the model and that it was cast from 8620 steel. Nothing else. I could tell a number of smaller parts were not there, but all the major goodies were, so I made the deal.





Been doing some research since then to try to find out who made these parts, and hopefully get some guidance for correct finishing. It is evident that these are not parts from Rodney Storie's Rifle Shop in Oklahoma. Storie's castings were based on investment castings using original 44 1/2 actions as patterns. They actually finish out slightly undersized due to casting shrinkage. They are also the same width as original guns, which according to my copy of "Single Shot Rifles and Actions" by Frank DeHaas, should be 1.1" wide.

The action casting I have is surface ground on both sides, and is 1.251" wide. This is the same as Paul Shuttleworth's CPA Stevens 44 1/2 actions. CPA made their actions wider because the original 44 1/2 had a barrel shank that was too small for bigger cartridges like .38-55, .30-40 Krag, or even .45-70. But it doesn't appear that CPA ever sold unfinished castings, only finished actions or finished rifles. CPA does have a lot of the missing parts such as extractors, firing pins, springs, and screws I would need to finish this action. They do not have the link, but it looks pretty simple to make if I had correct dimensions. The parts I bought look as nice as any investment castings I've seen with no voids, sand holes, or depressions.

I would appreciate hearing any leads on what company may have made these castings, or where I could get accurate prints showing critical dimensions. There are small countersinks marking locations of screws and pins, but of course, no information on diameters or thread sizes.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 140
Likes: 1
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 140
Likes: 1
Paul Shuttleworth was not the originator of the "New" Stevens 44 1/2. Ken Breisen comes to mind and I think he sold to Paul in the mid-80's. Those parts may have come from his shop before selling to Paul. If you give CPA a call, Gail should be able to tell you more about who first started their castings.

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 378
keith Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 378
Thanks Bob. I've heard that Paul's daughter Gail is very knowledgeable and helpful, and intended to call her after doing all my homework. The information you provided is very helpful. The last information I have is that Paul Shuttleworth was in his 80's and doing less, but still working. Is that still the case?

I'm still hoping to find some information on correct machining, screw and pin sizes, locations, etc. to turn this pile of castings into a nice rifle. If CPA only sells completed guns and rifles, I'm not too hopeful that they would share engineering drawings. I was hoping to avoid experimenting with dummy plastic breech blocks, links, etc. to get proper function before drilling or milling the wrong places on the real parts. But when I bought these parts, I had no illusions that it was going to be quick or easy to complete. Thanks again for the lead.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 140
Likes: 1
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 140
Likes: 1
Keith, You maybe able to find drawings on the ASSRA website. Contact Laurie Gapko as he is the current librarian and archivist and has all the records. In those records are drawings available for sale at $10 for many single shot rifles. I don't know if they are available for CPA Stevens but it's worth a try.
http://www.assra.com/assraofficers_dw.htm

Last edited by Bob Saathoff; 03/17/19 06:40 PM.
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,445
Likes: 204
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,445
Likes: 204
Another thought would be to get the basic internal layout from one of the De Haas books. Sorry, at the moment I don't know which on has the 44 1/2 in it. Towards the upper right, that may be a casting for a double set trigger. Maybe, a regular single trigger will get things moving along a bit easier. Best of luck with it, keith.

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 378
keith Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 378
Bob, I did see one vague reference on the internet to a member of ASSRA having some drawings, but the information and link you have is great news. $10.00 for some detailed drawings and specs would be a bargain compared to shooting in the dark or making a mistake. Thanks a million! This is exactly why I posted my query here after doing my own research.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 378
keith Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 378
craigd, I do have "Single Shot Rifles and Actions" by Frank DeHaas, and it does have a good drawing of the internals and parts identification. I found another online. Numrich/Gun Parts Corp is another good source for some exploded views, but they had nothing on the 44 1/2. The DeHaas book has a few basic dimensions such as the width of the action. But there is none of the detailed information concerning screw, pin and thread sizes. That one casting you mentioned is the two triggers for double set triggers. The trigger plate/lower tang is set up for same, but I considered the possibility of going with a single trigger. It would be interesting to know if I could use the same parts, and set it up as single trigger, but fairly easily go to a double set arrangement if I changed my mind. The old Rodney Storie kits came with two different types of lever/trigger guard to apparently go either way. But for some reason, this has two of the same spur type trigger guards, The triggers are still attached to the casting gate. The one part I'm not 100% sure of is the small part directly below the hammer. I'm not sure if that is the stirrup for the mainspring and hammer, or something for the set triggers. The nub on the left side of it is also a casting gate that hasn't been trimmed off.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,522
Likes: 167
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,522
Likes: 167

Last edited by skeettx; 03/17/19 10:53 PM.

USAF RET 1971-95 [Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,850
Likes: 150
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,850
Likes: 150
"...The one part I'm not 100% sure of is the small part directly below the hammer. ..."

That's the separate sear for the hammer. It gets kicked out of engagement by the DST to fire the rifle.

I'd bet those parts are from Ken Bresien's Shop/estate. He died a few years ago and lots of unique stuff found it's way onto the market.

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 721
Likes: 18
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 721
Likes: 18
You might also contact Rodney Storie through the ASSRA forum and ask if he has drawings for the Stevens 44 1/2. Rodney has been casting and building old single shot rifles for decades, and might already have the drawings you need if Laurie doesn't have them.

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,445
Likes: 204
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,445
Likes: 204
Originally Posted By: keith
....But there is none of the detailed information concerning screw, pin and thread sizes....

Only a thought, though you likely considered it. Since you're doing all the machining, you can pick the sizes and threading that you want. Maybe, you can base it off of ease of availability and value, rather than unseen historical correctness. An example of this approach is the CPA folks use highwall barrel threading, because it fits their goals better than the original.

Knowing all too well how projects like this can go, I'd think you'd be better off committing to one trigger style and not worrying about converting it. I think there's a distinct appeal for double set triggers, but in use, say fun at the range or out hunting, a decent conventional trigger might be preferable. Again, only thoughts, nothing more.

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 378
keith Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 378
Mike (skeettx), thank you for taking the time to post the link. That leeroysramblings drawing is actually one I was able to find during my own searching. It is based off of the drawing in the DeHaas book.

Kutter, thanks very much for the positive I.D. on the separate hammer sear. The drawings I've seen thus far are for a single trigger action where the hammer sear engages directly with the trigger and there is no separate intermediate sear. Your mention of the possibility that these castings originated with the late Ken Bresien meshes with what Bob Saathoff posted.

I didn't come across Ken Bresien's name at all during my own searching on the 44 1/2, but it seems vaguely familiar. I'm wondering if he may have been involved in the design or investment casting of the old Wickliffe 76 actions, which were a very beefed up version of the 44 1/2. Those were built in northeastern Ohio.

Vall, I suppose it is also worth a try to contact Rodney Storie. But I read a lot of old threads on the ASSRA forum, Practical Machinist forum, etc. looking for build info that had a lot of conflicting info on Mr. Storie and his Rifle Shoppe. He has a website that seems inactive, and there are reports that he has little interest in a business that took far too much time for the amount of return. Others say he is starting up production again, but can take months to respond to calls or emails. I'm just repeating things I read on other forums, and have no idea how much is true. But there is no question, judging by the number of different single shot action casting kits he had at one time, that he must have put his heart and soul into the business.

craigd, I agree with what you said. I hunted with double set triggers for years on my flintlock rifle, so am comfortable with either system. Except for that one time I tried a quick shot at a buck and pulled the wrong trigger. I also know how a lot of these projects go. They get started and never finished, and end up in somebody's estate sale. I got another lead yesterday on a nice Nichols & Lefever hammer gun with a poor replacement buttstock. If I can make a good deal, I probably won't be able to resist trying to save it too. When I finally retire, I'll have lots to keep me out of trouble. What started as a complete mystery with a lot of dead ends in my own searching is starting to come into clearer view thanks to the help I'm getting here.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,850
Likes: 150
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,850
Likes: 150
I don't know that Ken was involved with the Wickliffe project at all,,but as far as I know what became the CPA/Shuttleworth rifle was originally a project of Ken Bresien.

Ken was investment casting, or probably having investment casts made,, of many parts even late in his working career.
I have a couple of the less than acceptable 'culls' of M/L trigger guard and butt plate castings. They are marked with small red pencil areas to note what was not acceptable to him on them.
Also what I think is a trigger guard master used to make the wax models used in the investment cast process for them.

As far back as the late 70's, maybe very early 80's I recall single shot collector Leo Cook mentioning the 44 1/2 action that was in the works with Bresien's and Paul Shuttleworth's names in the conversation along with Jim Hall.
Jim Hall was making the Walker Hepburn underlever conversions on original Hepburn actions.
Leo was a well known Sgl/Shot collector. A great number of his rifles were in Grants books on the subject.

I didn't really know what it was all about back then. I was doing some restoration type engraving for those guys on some Single/Shot projects. I was still learning a Model 44 from a 44 1/2!

Ken was the go-to guy in the muzzle loader target arena for a bbl. His specialty was slug guns but most any precision M/L target rifle was his thing. An excellent all around gunsmith as well.
I still have the Win73 be rebored to 44cal for me from a worn out 38-40.
I remember that I traded the work I did relettering a Sharps bbl for him for the rebore.
That's kind of how a lot of things got done then.

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9
Boxlock
Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9
Hello, this is Rodney Storie, I did make a set of molds from a DST 44 1/2 loop lever action. I did not make the parts that are pictured here. I have no drawings or know of any. Bud Smith of Tools International had the drawings done for the Sharps 1874, Remington #1 and #3 Hepburn, Ballard, Farrow 1887 and Winchester 1885. a fellow named Mueller had the drawings for the 1878 done and as was stated before the ASSRA archives has these for $10 each. I have found a good foundry and am offering sets and parts again as a small retirement business.rodney4477@yahoo.com. Yes Ken Bresien made the molds that CPA uses. Ken showed me his action years ago at Friendship.

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9
Boxlock
Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9
just to clarify. I am not the Rifle Shoppe that is Jesse Melot. he is still in business, but can be hard to contact. he does mostly Muzzleloading sets and parts. he has told me that most of his business is in Europe. I have never had a web site, though I may if I get some help from my grandson.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.079s Queries: 45 (0.056s) Memory: 0.8795 MB (Peak: 1.8990 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-29 12:20:32 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS