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Sidelock
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Can anyone please help with translating the following:
"Lefaucheux-Gewehre, System Colleye mit Drahtläufen and Pirschstutzen Kaliber 20, 24, 28, 36 nach dem Systeme Colleye mit Eisenrohr and dergl. m. Stahlrohr in 1866"
I believe it is referring to Lefaucheux (pinfire) guns using the Colleye System, and that deer rifles of varying calibres are offerred... I would appreciate any help in understanding this text.
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[img] https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v...&fit=bounds[/img] Boy Photobucket has really changed over night. Maybe a Beta version? Steve, there were other systems for stalking guns like the Werdnl also. Cheers, Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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"Lefaucheux. Rifles, system Colleye with 'wire-barrels' and stalking-carbines in cal. 20, 24, 28, 36, system Colleye with iron barrel and also steel barrel in 1866"
Drahtlauf = 'wire barrel' = wire-wound barrels?
'steel barrel in 1866' - was '1866' a particular class of steel?
anyhow, that's what it says
rgds Gunter
Last edited by Gunter; 06/14/19 06:52 AM.
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Sidelock
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I would think that "Drahtlauf" refers to Damascus steel, which was reputedly originally made by forge welding iron and steel wires of different qualities together to form a flat strip, which could then be wrapped around a mandrel and forge welded together to form a barrel.
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Sidelock
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Below is the text from a similar advert. What are the monetary units?
1 Stück Pirschstutzen Kaliber 20, 24, 28, 36 nachdem Sisteme Colleye mit Eisenrohr fl. 60 ----- fl. ------ 1 dgl mit Stahlrohr fl. 72 --- fl. 150
1 Stück Sistem Roux m. Patronenzieher u Drahtläufen fl.60 ----fl. 150 1 "(Stück) Sistem Ghaye und Bastin die Läufe zum Schieben u. sogenannte Schlittenrohre fl. 100 ----- fl. 300
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Seems Johann Peterlongo peddled all possible platforms?
A few more lines from his 1866 advert:
1 Stück Doppelflinte mit Bandläufen einfach Hakensistem Ä sammt Lade Apparats fl. 48 ---- f.---- dgl mit einfachem Schlüsselfl fl. 48 ---- ft. 54 dgl Än dgl Sistem Lejeune zum Drehen mit Bandläufen fl. 54 --- ft. 60 dgl mit Drahtläufen fl. 60 ---- fl. 65 dgl mig Doppelschlüssel Drahtläufen fl. 65 ---- fl. 150 dgl Sistem Godin mit Drahtläufen fl. 60 - fl. 150
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Raimey,
the 'Florin was a monetary unit in Europe around that time. A coin, I believe.
here something from Wikipedia:
When the Gulden was decimalized in 1857, new coins were issued in denominations of ​1⁄2 (actually written ​5⁄10), 1 and 4 Kreuzer in copper, with silver coins of 5, 10 and 20 Kreuzer, ​1⁄4, 1 and 2 Florin and 1 and 2 Vereinsthaler and gold coins of 4 and 8 Florin or 10 and 20 francs. Vereinsthaler issues ceased in 1867. Vereinsthaler = ​1 1⁄2 Florins
rgds Gunter
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Sidelock
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Many thanks Gunter.
A few more lines from his 1866 advert:
1 Stück Doppelflinte mit Bandläufen einfach Hakensistem Ä sammt Lade Apparats Florin 48 ---- Florin---- dgl mit einfachem Schlüsselfl Florin 48 ---- Florin 54 dgl Än dgl Sistem Lejeune zum Drehen mit Bandläufen Florin 54 --- Florin 60 dgl mit Drahtläufen Florin 60 ---- Florin 65 dgl mig Doppelschlüssel Drahtläufen Florin 65 ---- Florin 150 dgl Sistem Godin mit Drahtläufen Florin 60 - Florin 150
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Raimey,
1 piece double gun - 'strip' barrels (as explained by Xausa above? not sure) with single hook system & all loading equipment Florin 48
the same with simple (single?) key FL 48 - 54
the same - system Lejeune - 'turning barrel' (opening?) with 'strip' barrels FL 54 - FL 60
the same (with) double-key(?)wire barrels FL 65 - FL 150
the same - system Godin - with wire barrels FL 60 - FL 150
rgds Gunter
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Sidelock
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The Schuler/Colleye gun I was seeking information on (in the general forum) has acid-etched damascus barrels. Perhaps this is relevant to the ‘wire’ description?
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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we need a Damascus expert here - which I am decidedly not!
could 'single key', 'double key' & perhaps 'strip' have something to do with number of layers - or perhaps the appearance of the Damascus? I just don't know.
rgds Gunter
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Here are the barrels of the Colleye System gun.
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Sidelock
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Nice set of pattern welded tubes. So Gunter are you referring to >>Laminated<<, >>Twist<< >>2 Iron<<, >>3 Iron<<??
German terms dealing w/ tubes in advert:
Bandläufen, Drahtläufen, Eisenläufen, Eisenrohr, Stahlrohr, etc.
The advert mentions >>feinen Damastläufen<< further down so I don't know?
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Raimey, I am not referring to anything in particular! I did say that I don't know anything about Damascus barrels as I thought I had made clear in my message(s)!!??
I provided two (correct) translations of two separate texts relating to two separate questions in this thread and also, as an aside, gave my personal opinion of what I thought might be a possible explanation/description of a put question while stating clearly that I am NOT an expert in this particular field (Damascus barrels)!
I have no idea whether anything might relate to 'laminated' 'twist', '2iron', '3iron' or anything else - as I said, I AM NOT a Damascus expert
So why have a go at me??
I shall think twice in future before I give a translation!
I am too old to get upset for trying to help people!
Gunter
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Thank you all for your time and help in translating and figuring out these texts. It is greatly appreciated.
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Sidelock
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Gunter: Not sure how you took my post, but it seems you took it any way but the proper way. I was just trying to understand your line of reasoning & from there try to find some correlation. Also, not sure which word or phrase tripped the switch on the tracks, but it wasn't intended in that manner. I try to listen to all posters, maybe less Ford, and my record here on the BBS well supports this. I just thought you & Ford may have been there when they rolled the tubes? Cheers, Raimey rse
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[img] https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v...&fit=bounds[/img] Boy Photobucket has really changed again. Anyway, hopefully this link is to a legible snippet. Cheers, Raimey rse
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Ah, hah. I have found it from 1829:
>>Drahtläufen Ueber eine Hülse wird wie bey den Bandröhren ein starker Eisendraht spiralförmig dicht an einander und mehrmahls über einander gewunden bis das Rohr die erforderliche Stärke erhalten hat hierauf wird das Rohr wie gewöhnlich geschweißt und nach Vollendung desselben die Hülse ausgebohrt Diese Gattung Röhre welche besonders in Kärnthen erzeugt werden haben den Vortheil der Gewundenen nur ist zur Erzeugung derselben zu viel Zeit erforderlich wodurch ihr Vorzug wieder verloren geht Uebrigens kann man bey den Drahtröhren mit mehr Gewißheit auf die Güte derselben als bey den Gewundenen und Gedrehten rechnen indem es unmöglich ist aus einer schlechten Gattung Eisen Draht zu erzeugen Diese Röhre sind jedoch nicht mit den uralten und gleich Anfangs verworfenen Drahtröhren canon filé zu verwechseln welche eben so mit umgewundenem Drahte auf einem Rohre vorbereitet aber anstatt geschweißt mit Schlagloth und Borar gelöthet wurden von der Hülse wurde auch nur die Hälfte höchstens ausgebohrt Ueberdieß bestand der Pulversack auf einer Länge von 10 bis 12 Zoll durchaus aus geschmiedetem Eisen Es ist sonderbar genug daß sich kürzlich Jemand bey der österreichischen Artillerie gemeldet hat welcher dieses Verfahren als neu angab und auf diese Art sogar grobe Geschütze verfertigen wollte ohne sich dabey einer eisernen Hülse zum Umwinden und Löthen des Drahtes bedienen zu wollen.......<<
https://books.google.com/books?id=43dAAAAAcAAJ&lpg=PA142&ots=e5VQIbul2F&dq=Drahtl%C3%A4ufen&pg=PA143#v=onepage&q=Drahtl%C3%A4ufen&f=false
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Wire Roughing Over a sleeve, as with the band tubes, a strong iron wire is wound spirally close to each other and several times over each other until the tube has received the required strength, then the pipe is welded and slackened as usual
This genus tubes, which are especially produced in Carinthia, have the advantage of the tortuous, but too much time is required to produce them, whereby their merit is lost again. By the way, with the wire tubes one can confidently ascertain the goodness of them To make twisted and twisted pieces, it is impossible to make wire from a bad kind of iron
These tubes, however, are not to be confused with the ancient and immediately discarded wire tubes canon filé which are prepared with wound wire on a tube but instead of welded with pestle and borar loosened from the sleeve only half were drilled out at the most On a length of 10 to 12 inches it is certainly made of forged iron. It is curious enough that somebody recently reported to the Austrian artillery who indicated that this procedure was new and in this way even wanted to make rough guns without having to use an iron sleeve for winding and To serve soldering of the wire......
Forced, poor translation.
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Very interesting reference to Carinthia. This is the damascus sample display in the Buchsenmacher u. Jagdmuseum of Ferlach, and Carinthia is upper right Steve's tube certainly appears to be 3 iron acid etched Bernard I, which was a very popular pattern in quality Ferlach and Suhl guns This is a close up of the acid etched Carinthia sample, unfortunately taken through the glass of the display case I don't see the repetitive pattern of loops in Steve's barrel, which carries the Liege provisional proof and ML in an oval - likely Manufacture Liégeoise (1866-1929) though usually a crowned ML. 17.2 should be the bore in mm = .677" or an overbored 16g? 14g is .693"
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Sidelock
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The gun in question is pictured in a post on the DoubleGun BBS. The barrels are indeed acid-etched. Stockel mentions M N Colleye as being in business from 1850-1865, I’m told.
The Manufacture Liégeoise stamps with the crown within the oval that I have seen pictures of are quite different in shape to the stamp on the barrels, but it might reflect an earlier version of their stamp. This might explain the low serial number.
My comfort zone is British pinfires. I’m afraid Continental guns are outside my area of knowledge, so again, thank you all for your input.
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German text w/ punctuation:
>>Ueber eine Hülse wird, wie bey den Bandröhren, ein starker Eisendraht, spiralförmig dicht an einander, und mehrmahls über einander gewunden, bis das Rohr die erforderliche Stärke erhalten hat; hierauf wird das Rohr wie gewöhnlich geschweißt, und nach Vollendung desselben, die Hülse ausgebohrt. Diese Gattung Röhre, welche besonders in Kärnthen erzeugt werden, haben den Vortheil der Gewundenen nur; ist zur Erzeugung derselben zu viel Zeit erforderlich, wodurch ihr Vorzug wieder verloren geht. Uebrigens kann man bey den Drahtröhren mit mehr Gewißheit auf die Güte derselben als bey den Gewundenen und Gedrehten rechnen, indem es unmöglich ist, aus einer schlechten Gattung Eisen Draht zu erzeugen. Diese Röhre sind jedoch nicht mit den uralten und gleich Anfangs verworfenen Drahtröhren (canon filé) zu verwechseln, welche eben so mit umgewundenem Drahte, auf einem Rohre vorbereitet, aber anstatt geschweißt, mit Schlagloth und Borar gelöthet wurden; von der Hülse wurde auch nur die Hälfte, höchstens 2/3 ausgebohrt. Ueberdieß bestand der Pulversack, auf einer Länge von 10 bis 12 Zoll, durchaus aus geschmiedetem Eisen. Es ist sonderbar genug, daß sich kürzlich Jemand bey der österreichischen Artillerie gemeldet hat, welcher dieses Verfahren als neu angab, und auf diese Art sogar grobe Geschütze verfertigen wollte, ohne sich dabey einer eisernen Hülse, zum Umwinden und Löthen des Drahtes bedienen zu wollen. <<
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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A few lines of text from the next topic Damascirten Läufen:
>>Von den damascirten Läufen Eine künstliche Mischung von Stahl und Eisen gibt eine Massa, welche bey uns unter dem Nahmen Damast bekannt ist, und diese Benennung von ihrem Erfindungsorte Damascus erhalten hat. Ob die Türken zu ihren berühmten Säbelklingen, von welchen so viel Wunderbares erzählt wird, andere Ingredienzien, oder auch Metalle verwenden, ist nicht bekannt; sicher ist es jedoch, daß man, wie ich gleich zeigen werde, mit einer Mischung von Eisen und Stahl allein, die natürlichen Verzierungen, wie bey den türkischen damascirten Klingen und Läufen hervorbringen kann. Und was die Güte der Klingen anbelangt, getraue ich mir zu behaupten daß manche der gewöhnlichen Klingen, wovon das Stück um einige Gulden beygeschafft werden kann, den mir bekannten türkischen Klingen in der Güte wenig nachstehen werden.
Der einzige Vortheil, welcher aus einer Massa von Damast, für dieLäufe sowohl als für die Klingen erwachsen könne, ist, daß durch das wiederhohlte Gärben des Eisens und Stahles, wum die erwünschte Mischung zu erhalten, die Massa um so dichter wird, und der Klinge, ohne daß selbe springt, eine noch größere Härte gegeben werden kann, weil das untermischte Eisen, welches die Härtung nicht so stark annimmt, zur Verbindung und Unterstützung der stärkeren Stahltheile dienen kann. Aber auch bey den ordinären Klingen wird das Eisen gemischt. Ueberdieß enthält der natürliche Stahl, woraus gewöhnlich die Klingen erzeugt werden, so viele Eisentheile in sich, daß selbe wohl auch den nähmlichen Dienst leisten werden *)
*) Herr Fischer hat unlängst den sogenannten Meteor Stahl hergestellt, welcher aus Stahl und Nickel besteht. Diese Gattung Stahl ist zur Erzeugung der Klingen sehr gut, und biethet nebstdem eine damascirte Massa dar, die ein sehr gefälliges Ansehen hat. <<
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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A few lines on >>Bandröhr<<:
>>Das Princip nach welchem die gedrehten Röhre erzeugt werden, ist das der gewundenen oder Bandröhr, mithin auch hier derselbe Vortheil. Der Unterschied in der Erzeugung besteht darinn, daß, anstatt auf ein Futter oder eine Hülse ein schmales Eisenband schraubenförmig umzuwinden, der Büchsenbrand, wie bey den ordinären Röhren, nach der Länge geschweißt das Rohr bey jeder Schweißhitze in einen Schraubstock gespannt und zusammen gedreht wird wodurch die Schweißnath eben so wie bey einem Bandrohre schraubenförmig ausfällt.<<
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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A few familiar French terms that allows equating:
>>a) Gedrehte Läufe(canon tordu,) f.) sind auf die gewöhnliche Weise aus Platten gerollt und geschweisst, aber bei jeder Schweisshitze in den Schraubstock gespannt und zusammengedreht wodurch die Schweissnaht und die Fasern des Eisens eine schraubenförmige Richtung annehmen. Die Läufe gewinnen hierdurch an Widerstandsfähigkeit egen das Zerspringen......
b) Gewundene Läufe, Bandläufe( canon à ruban). Uber ein dünnes wie gewöhnlich geschweisstes Rohr (Futterrohr, Hülse, chemise) f.) wird ein flacher Eisenstab von 6 bis 9 Limien Breite schraubenartig gewunden und unter fleissigem Stauchen (um die Windungen einander zu nähern) geschweisst Beim Ausbohren dieser Läufe wird die Hülse ganz wieder weggeschafft Der Vortheil ist.......
c. Damascirte Läufe (canon damassé, f.) Bandläufe, wozu die Bänder aus hartem und weichem. zusammengesetzt, durch Schweissen, Ausstrecken Drehen und Plattschlagen vorbereitet sind( s. Eisen - Stahl). Das Beitzen geschieht wie bei anderen damascirten Arbeiten (s. Eisen). Je feiner der Damast werden soll, desto dünner muss das gedrehte Band seyn; daher können dicke Läufe (Büchsenläufe) nur mit einer Hülse gemacht werden. Man wickelt oft fünf Bänder neben einander auf (gleichsam wie ein fünffaches Schraubengewinde) nämlich vier damascirte und ein schlicht gestreiftes ( s. oben bei den Bandläufen). Die grösste Aufmerksamkeit ist darauf zu wenden, dass die einzelnen Bänder bei ihrer Vertiefung einen völlig gleichen Grad von Drehung erhalten, weil sie sonst ungleich grosse nicht zusammen passende Figuren geben.
d) Drahtläufe(canon filé). Ein dünner Lauf wird mit etwas starkem Eisendrahte dicht und in vielfachen Lagen über einander bewickelt, dann geschweisst. Das Futterrohr wird ausgebohrt der fertige Lauf mit Säure gebeitzt Die Drahtläufe sind den Bandläufen im gestreiften Ansehen ähnlich und gewähren nicht nur gleich jenen eine der Festigkeit sehr....<<
1840 -
https://books.google.com/books?id=O-BgAAAAcAAJ&lpg=PA361&ots=VaCS-nfmK8&dq=Bandl%C3%A4ufen&pg=PA361#v=onepage&q=Bandl%C3%A4ufen&f=false
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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What was the digital source of that image Raimey? From Die bekanntesten Stahlsorten für Gewehrläufe, 1930 Ferlacher Rubans, Fine Twist, Ruban d'acier, or Stahlband Ruban More here http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20069190
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Die Herstellungsstufe der Damastläufe
I think a paper source, but it is Marholdt Waffen-Lexikon provided to me by a BBS member that can come forward should he choose to do so. what piques your interest in the snippet?
One item that I failed to mention is that in the text >>BandDamastLäufe<< is coupled w/ „Drahtläuf" as one in the same?
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Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Might you have seen any info on the following from your Ferlacher Rosetta Stone?
Gedreht and Halebgedreht Damastläuf - spelling correct on any?
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Unfortunately no; adequate images of Gedreht (turned) and Halbgedreht (half-turned) could not be obtained through the glass of the case. Bottom left
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Sidelock
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<<Je feiner der Damast werden soll, desto dünner muss das gedrehte Band seyn; daher können dicke Läufe (Büchsenläufe) nur mit einer Hülse gemacht werden.>>
I find this most interesting as it points to the fact that at this juncture in time there was a somewhat different method for making pattern welded tubes(Büchsenläufe) that were destined to be rifled.
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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"nur mit einer Huelse gemacht warden"= only with a liner made. It has been discussed before that rifled pattern welded barrels were made with a liner which was the part that was rifled. Mike
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Thanks Ford, so in this case >>Hülse<< translates as >>liner<<.
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Raimey, I believe that is the meaning, although I doubt you will find it in a German/English Dictionary. German hunters and Gunsmiths use different terms for things that don't translate in German to the meaning they have as a "term of art" or "Waidmannsprache"(?). Mike
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Sidelock
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I didn't find that definition in my dictionary of German shooting terms, although I did find three other expressions for barrel liner.
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Sidelock
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xausa, I hope you are not laboring under the misimpression that this would be the first time I was wrong. What are the other three expressions? What do you think the statement means? Did you find Huelse(?). I am disadvantaged in that I don't have a dictionary of German shooting terms. Does it include antique gunmaking terms? Mike
Last edited by Der Ami; 06/18/19 09:11 AM.
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I labor under a lot of misapprehensions, but that is not one of them.
"Liner" translates as Futterlauf, Einlegerohr, and Seelenrohr according to Wörterbuch der Waffentechnik, Zusammengesetzt von Joachim Görtz. They all make sense to me in a Germanic sort of way. Give me an example of the antique gunmaking terms you are referring to.
I have another dictionary called Technisches Wörterbuch für Waffenfreunde, Schützen und Jäger, Verlag J. Neumann-Neudamm, Melsungen, but it is much smaller and not nearly as good.
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A few pages back >>Futterrohr<<, >>Hülse<, & the French term >>chemise<< are noted as one in the same for liner:
>>b) Gewundene Läufe, Bandläufe( canon à ruban). Uber ein dünnes wie gewöhnlich geschweisstes Rohr (Futterrohr, Hülse, chemise) f.) wird ein flacher Eisenstab von 6 bis 9 Limien Breite schraubenartig gewunden und unter fleissigem Stauchen (um die Windungen einander zu nähern) geschweisst Beim Ausbohren dieser Läufe wird die Hülse ganz wieder weggeschafft Der Vortheil ist.......<<
Might >>Gewundene Läufe<< be in one of the texts?
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Drew, can you aid in attaching an actual image w/ the following types/descriptions from the 1840s? a)Gedrehte Läufe(canon tordu,) f.) b) Gewundene Läufe, Bandläufe( canon à ruban) c) Damascirte Läufe (canon damassé, f.) d) Drahtläufe(canon filé) Was searching for a few patterns & stumbled upon this video where there are some actual patterns? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa9dlvRDuQUZénobe Théophile Gramme's name in a pattern is quite interesting... Cheers, Raimey rse
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xausa, The term I was interested in is "Huelse". The main difference between what I am thinking and the modern use of liner is that now a liner would be a rifled tube inserted into a barrel that has been prepared for it by drilling, boring, and or reaming. It would be held in by solder or commonly, now, adhesive. What I am talking about is one that is not rifled, but is included in the making of the pattern welded barrel by having the wire or bands, or what ever wound around it and welded to it in manufacturing process. After the blank barrel was made, it would then be bored/reamed to size, then rifled. This applied to pattern welded rifle barrels only, not shotgun barrels. Mike
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The definition of "Hülse" is as follows:(Patrone) case, (Granate, Schrotpatrone) shell, (Gewehr, Pistole) receiver (MG) gas cylinder plug, (Gewinde) socket.
However, I have seen descriptions of manufacturing procedures which resemble what you are describing. It is as if the term "Hülse" was being used to describe what I would translate as a mandrel, such as a mandrel used in hammer forged barrel manufacture, except that rather than being a tool of the manufacturing process it constitutes an integral part of the finished product.
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Many thanks & so we are back to back >>Futterrohr<<, >>Hülse<, & the French term >>chemise<<. So in your reference text(s) are >>Futterrohr<< & >>Hülse<< interchangeable?
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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To make confusion even bigger:A "Hülse" or "Futterrohr" is not a "Futterlauf" - this means a smaller caliber rifle barrel inserted into a bigger one...;-)
Wolfgang
Last edited by Gunwolf; 06/20/19 05:27 AM.
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Oh, I fancy that Wolfgang. And here I though American English was confusing?
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Well, Hülse here means the same as Mandrel. Drahtläufe are not Damascus barrels, but made from simple iron wire.
Wolfgang
Last edited by Gunwolf; 06/20/19 05:42 AM.
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Drahtläufe are not Damascus barrels, but made from simple iron wire.
Do tell Wolfgang, how exactly are they manufactured & post a few examples. Cheers, Raimey rse
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Raimey, I will do so, ut probably not today, because I have not enough time. If I remember right, it is described in the small book "Eine Gewehrfabrik in Suhl" which I gave you in the Eifel.
Cheers, Wolfgang
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Here is an old description of the 3 possible methods of making a EUROPEAN Damascus barrel : Gewöhnlich nimmt der Roh-Schmied auf den Fabriken zu den Platinen eines solchen Laufes zugleich graues (hartes) und weißes (weiches) Eisen und Stahl, legt die dünnen Stangen dieser Metalle nach der Länge zusammen und windet sie nach dem Zusammenschweißen. Das gewundene Stück (Anm. d. Verf.: man findet Läufe mit der Bezeichnung „GEWUNDENE LAEUF“) Metall schmiedet er wieder platt, schlägt es zusammen, windet es von neuem und wiederholt diese Arbeit einige Mal, ehe er hieraus eine Platine (Werkstück für den Lauf. Anm. d. Verf.) schmiedet. Weit feiner ist aber die Damascierung, oder mit dem Büchsenmacher zu reden, der Damast, wenn das ganze Rohr aus aufgewickeltem Draht zusammengeschweißt ist. Man nimmt einen alten Flintenlauf und umwickelt ihn etwa nach der halben Länge des künftigen damascierten Rohres mit feinem, ausgeglühten Draht, denn die Verwicklung dehnt sich, wie leicht zu erachten, bey dem Zusammenschweißen aus. Auf jede Lage werden nach der Länge einige stärkere Enden Draht gelegt, damit die Lagen nicht auseinander fallen. Eine Person wickelt den Draht um den Dorn und eine andere staucht ihn mit einem Stempel fest gegen den Dorn an. Diese Arbeit wird so lange fortgesetzt, bis der umwickelte Dorn mit dem Draht etwa so dick ist als der Schenkel eines ausgewachsenen Mannes. Man übergibt alsdann die Verwickelung des Drahtes einem geschickten Rohrschmied auf der Gewehrfabrik, der den Draht bis zur Schweißhitze bringt und ihn erst auf einem starken, zuletzt aber auf einem kalibermäßigen Dorn zusammenschweißt. Der Draht muß aber wenigstens 20mal in die Gluth gebracht werden, ehe er sich völlig zusammenschweißen läßt. Allein die wenigsten Rohrschmiede verstehen das Schweißen eines solchen Rohrs.
Die geringste Damascierung entsteht, wenn man um einen schwachen Lauf, der eine Hülse heißt, Draht wickelt, oder um ihn eine dünne Platine von der ersten Damascierung schlägt und beides auf das Rohr anschweißt.
Allein die Adern des damascierten Rohrs fallen erst dann in die Augen, wenn das Rohr gebeizt ist. Man bedeckt es daher in einem hölzernen Trog völlig mit Essig, Vitriol und Scheidewasser, und läßt es in dieser Beize solange stehen, bis sich die Adern zeigen.“
Es sind also drei verschiedene Verfahren zu unterscheiden, von denen das zweite und feinste dem beschriebenen Flechtdamast aus Drähten des frühen D. entspricht. Auch die Anwendung des ersten Verfahrens aus gewundenen Stäben wird allgemein für die Frühzeit angenommen. Außer Betracht bleibt hier der moderne unechte, durch geätzte Muster vorgetäuschte D.
Last edited by Gunwolf; 06/20/19 07:40 AM.
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Ah, I see now Wolfgang. Yes I am still stumbling thru that ruddy old German. So take some old tube, cast?, & wind wire around it & forge it. Sounds like Faux Damascus to me, but just another method/technique.
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Indeed Raimey! The whole Story on occidental Damascus steel: http://www.rdklabor.de/wiki/DamaststahlCheers, Wolfgang
Last edited by Gunwolf; 06/20/19 08:45 AM.
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xausa, Almost. What I was trying to describe would have a mandrel in the tube , to be removed after the forging and before the boring/reaming, rifling. I can see that it would take some "rohrmachergeheimnis"(?) to prevent welding the mandrel in. Mike
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Could “Drahtläufe” perhaps refer to acid-etched damascus barrels? They certainly have the look and feel of wire.
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I don't think so. Drahtläufe(canon filé) - French to German term conversion. Cheers, Raimey rse
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Mike: the chemise/sleeve was softer metal that fit between the ribband and the mandrel, and was bored out after the tube was fabricated
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OK, that makes a lot more sense than what I was visualizing. To me, a "Hülse" refers to a tube or something similarly hollowed out, like a cartridge case.
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Drew, Yes, but that is a shotgun barrel. I was talking about a rifle barrel that would be rifled after the welding. xausa, Your understanding is what would be needed for a rifle barrel. Mike
Last edited by Der Ami; 06/21/19 09:35 AM.
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>>Futterrohr<<, >>Hülse<, & the French term >>chemise<< Cheers, Raimey rse
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Yes I wish that all the descriptive terms were included in the early descriptions.
Ferlacher Rosendamastläufen
Bernard Damastläufen
Ferlacher Halbrosenläufen gedrehten Rubandamastläufen
Leclerc Damastläufen
„Vorderlader“ mit halbgedrehten Rubandnmastläufen und mit halbgedrehten Eisenläufen
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Many thanks to Jani & Wolfgang on the following. General consensus is that >>Ferlacher Halbrosenläufen und mit gedrehten Rubandamastläufen<< is in fact a Buchsflinte / Biksarica(Priveznjena Polrisanica - puška polrisanica?) / Combo with a steel rifled tube & a pattern welded tube. Anyone so versed in >>Waidmannssprache<< that they might correct us & put us on the straight & narrow or point us in the proper direction?
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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A few more barrel choices on a Büschflinte fabrik by Sauer & Sohn, a steel rifle & pattern welded scattergun:
Centralfeuer-Büchsflinte
Schrotlauf aus Banddamast Schrotlauf aus feinem Garibaldi-Damast Schrotlauf aus feinstem Boston-Damast
Dieselbe Sorte mit Doppelflinten Wechselrohren
„Garibaldi-Damast" escapes me for now?
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Nr. 26 & Nr. 16 wear „Garibaldi-Damast":
https://books.google.com/books?id=tD4VAQAAIAAJ&lpg=PT35&ots=lEs7XXVBXP&dq=%E2%80%9EGaribaldi-Damast%22&pg=PT35#v=onepage&q=%E2%80%9EGaribaldi-Damast%22&f=false
List also pattern welded types:
Band-Damast-Läufe Bernard-Damast Crollé Damastläufen Garibaldi-Damast Hufnagel-Damast Läufen
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Although possibly not the „Waidmannssprache" but from a 1916 Handbook for Hunters, the following common pattern welded types under the Damast term:
Bernard, Rosen, Laminette, Garibaldi und Moiée-D.(spelling?) „Damas anglais".
https://books.google.com/books?id=otqEAAAAIAAJ&lpg=PA69&ots=jWh6fdh3Pd&dq=garibaldi%20damastl%C3%A4ufen&pg=PA69#v=onepage&q=garibaldi%20damastl%C3%A4ufen&f=false
Interesting phrase: „Damastläufe werden fast ausschließlich in Belgien hergestellt."
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Raimey, Wolfgang is certainly well versed in "Waidmannssprache" which is "Hunters language", similarly, gunsmiths/gunmakers had their own terms of art that would differ from Waidmannssprache, but would often be of interest to hunters. It is likely that a conversation in a gunsmith shop would include both of these, normal German, and one or more local dialects. Mike
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Sure Ford, but it is my opinion that those w/ the knowledge have set sail and made the voyage on to the Great Hunting Grounds......
If you know of one that is left, please send me his contact info.
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Raimey, Wolfgang is certainly well versed in "Waidmannssprache" which is "Hunters language",..... I think Wolfgang is going to put on a „Waidmannssprache" seminar in Bonn or possibly a webinar??? Cheers, Raimey rse
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Raimey, For questions regarding "Waidmannssprache", you can ask Axel, he is a certified instructor and administers the tests for aspiring hunters. You have his info. For questions regarding gunsmithing/gunmaking terms, ask Walter Grass, Helmut Kerner, Gerold Pfeffer, Hans Zimmermann, or Rudi Henneberger. They were still "kicking" when I left, but except for Walter, I haven't spoken to them since. I don't have their info, but I'm confident you can find it. Mike
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Raimey, nice idea! I will see, what I can do..!
Cheers, Wolfgang
P. S. You forgot the Boston Damast
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Bernard, Boston, Rosen, Laminette, Garibaldi und Moiée-D.(spelling?) „Damas anglais".
Wolfgang:
Any wild idea on the „Garibaldi"?
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Raimey, still searching
Already found:
Laminette-Ruban- Damast:
Landesbezeichnung für einen Kombinationsdamast. Hierbei liegt tordierter Damast neben gestreiftem Damast. Spezialität bei Gewehr- und Pistolenläufen.
Bernard Damast:
Nicolas, Leopold Bernard; Bernard stammt aus einer Büchsenmacherfamilie aus Paris. Etwa 1804 soll er mit der gewerbsmäßigen Fertigung von Damastläufen in Paris begonnen haben. Ihm sagt man die Entwicklung des sog. Bernard-Damastes nach. Der Bernard-Damast hat im Grundpaket einen schach-brettartigen Aufbau. Bernard- Damast war später eine Musterbezeichnung für Gewehrläufe mit dieser Art Damast wie z. B. Bernard I, Bernard II, Leopold Bernard, Bernard Extra. Bernard-Damast wurde in erster Linie in Lüttich (Vesdre Tal) gefertigt.
^Cheers, Wolfgang
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And:
Moiré , französisch, "geflammt", Oberflächenmusterung bei * Damaststahl
Cheers, Wolfgang
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Moire' refers to the appearance of "watered silk" and is an early damascus pattern c. 1750 German flintlock pistol Acid etched Damas Moire'c. 1844 Valentin Funk & Sohne Modern Moire' rifle barrel manufactured by Zbrojovka Brno
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Drew:
I like that 2nd advert for August Stukenbrok where it gives that all you need on the Dark Continent is the 9,3X74R:
„......besonders aber in den Tropen auf Elefanten, Rhinozerosse, Büffel, Flußpferde, Löwen und Tiger"
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Looks nice at the first glance, at the second there are several mistake..! That wasn't an expert.
Cheers, Wolfgang
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„Sonntagsstamperer" - an odd term that is not seen that often? Thanks to Wolfgang for the following:
>>If you are a hunter and call some of your friends or neighbours together for a small hunt, mostly on mixed game or perhaps on wild boar, this is called a "Stamperer" especially in Southern Germany, namely in Bavaria. A small hunt, just for fun! And If you do so on a Sunday, it's a "Sonntagsstamperer". In my Region we call this a "Piddelsjagd".
Important: In Germany it's not allowed to make a bigger hunt on Sunday. That means no more than 4 hunters together. So, a Sonntagsstamperer means a hunt with only 4 hunters or less!<<
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Well, time for the first lesson in our webinar Waidmannssprache oder Jägersprache. 1. Red Deer Stag: Eyes = Augen in German = "Lichter" for the Waidmann (Lichter means lights) Nose = Nase in German = "Windfang" for the Waidmann (Windfang means catching the wind) Ears = Ohren = "Lauscher" for the Waidmann (lauschen = listen intensely) If you have learned this, don't be happy too early! Take a look at the Wild Boar and see the different terms. Here comes a Keiler: Cheers, Wolfgang
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Raimey, When did they start limiting Sunday hunts to 4 hunters( + drivers?). At least up to the 1980s, we hunted almost every Sunday with 7-10 hunters and as many drivers. The exception was the year of Carter's gas crisis, when non emergency driving was not allowed on Sundays. It this limit Germany wide or only certain states?
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Mike, because it was me, who stated it, let me answer: This limit is German Federal law. The number of hunters allowed is different from staten to state.Some say 4 hunters and 4 drivers. Because the ASP (African pig desease) is coming closer, some states give exceptions, but not for every Sunday! It#s not forbidden to hunt with more hunters only sitting and without drivers
I just see, that in the Baden-Württemberg state there are allowed hunts with no more than 15 people, hunters and drivers together.
Cheers, Wolfgang
Last edited by Gunwolf; 07/01/19 01:45 PM.
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Wolfgang, It seems like limiting the number of hunters to control disease is backward, you would think they would like to control the number of animals to slow the spread of disease. The hunts I was speaking of were for small game( niederwild), does the limit apply to that also? Mike
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Mike,
yes, it is for all kinds of Treibjagd or Gesellschaftsjagd. By the way, as you perhaps know, in Germany we speak of "Sonntagsjäger". It's a synonym for an unexperienced non-professional part-time hunter. But that has nothing to do with the "Sonntagsstamperer".
Cheers, Wolfgang
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Wolfgang, Yes I remember the term. I am really sorry things seem to be "going to pot" now, it seems that liberals are taking over everywhere. It is all lost to me even if I could get back over there. I can hardly walk to my truck now, I sure couldn't walk for hours through wet plowed fields with mist spread all over to "kick up" Hase or maybe Fasan from the edges. I miss it. Mike
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Mike, I'm afraid you are right! Things become really worse and the golden und days of hunting are lost. But you (and me too) can treasure that time of happy hunting! To be honest, even today I enjoy some good hunting with my dogs on driven hunts for wild boar, Red deer and roe deer. But of course this also will change in a not so far future... So: carpe diem!
Cheers, Wolfgang
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Well, time for the first lesson in our webinar Waidmannssprache oder Jägersprache. 1. Red Deer Stag: Eyes = Augen in German = "Lichter" for the Waidmann (Lichter means lights) Nose = Nase in German = "Windfang" for the Waidmann (Windfang means catching the wind) Ears = Ohren = "Lauscher" for the Waidmann (lauschen = listen intensely) If you have learned this, don't be happy too early! Take a look at the Wild Boar and see the different terms. Here comes a Keiler: Press on Wolfgang as I'm almost ready for the next installment. When is the exam? Cheers, Raimey rse
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OK, Raimey
A little exam, the following terms All stand for ears (Ohren) in the Waidmannssprache: 1. Lauscher 2. Teller 3. Löffel 4. Gehöre 5. Behang 6. Luser
Tell me at least one animal/game for each term.
Waidmannsheil, Wolfgang
Last edited by Gunwolf; 07/03/19 08:54 PM.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,737 Likes: 181
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,737 Likes: 181 |
Wolfgang:
I wish to defer the exam for a moment but will address it.
Many, many thanks to Wolfgang for ferreting out the info on the „Drahtläufe"(tubes formed from horseshoe nails, etc.) & the „Dühl“ which is formed into a rod or band and then converted into a tube.
„Man hat noch mehrere Künsteleien versucht (..has brought off the feat..) um gute, egale und besser haltende Rohre zu bekommen. So hat man z.B. (for example) die Schiene des ordinairen oder das Band des gewundenen Rohres, nicht aus dem Löschfeuer des Eisenhammers schmieden lassen, sondern man schmelzte in dem kleinen Feuer des Rohrhammers einen eigenen Dühl von Draht, Hufnägeln und dgl. (similar) Stücken, welcher Dühl sodann ausgeschmiedet, und daraus die sogenannten Drahtrohre gemacht wurden“
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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