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10 members (Karl Graebner, HMAK, Ian Forrester, Mike Harrell, j7l2, 1 invisible),
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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The Fox doesn't seem to rate as highly as others when members discuss their best and favourites, as they've been doing lately.
And yet, here's Michael McIntosh on Page 81 of his A.H. Fox "The Finest Gun in the World":
“No Fox gun--indeed, no American gun---has ever approached the perfection of a London best nor the finest products of the various European trades, but by the same token, no boxlock action built anywhere exceeds the simplicity or reliability or sheer mechanical excellence of a Fox. No British or European boxlock is any better, and no American gun can even come close---not Parker nor Ithaca nor the Winchester 21 nor even Uncle Dan Lefever’s great Automatic Hammerless.”
Mr. McInstosh quoted John Wilkes’s opinion of the quality a Fox XE on the rack at his London store: “Oh, quite good. The Fox and the Ithaca single trap are the only guns you chaps ever made that are as good as guns ought to be.”
What think thee?
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Perhaps just a touch of Falstaffian hyperbole shared by AH and Mister Mac.
jack
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Michael doesn't get out enough.
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I've noticed a trend amongst gun owners:
1) Buy a bunch of a certain type of gun - this can be a make, model, or even a variation. A Parker with Bernard steel barrels is an example.
2) Increase desirability by telling anyone who will listen how their gun of choice is special, better, etc.
Of course MacIntosh will tell you the Fox gun handles best, shoots best, and cures cancer - he owns them. His book might be a great PR effort but let's not forget at the end of the day he's offering his subjective opinion.
If I wrote a book about Corvettes and included reference to the Viper being a superior car, what would that do sales of my book?
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MM bought a Parker first. Kept it for a while and disposed of it because it didn't fit him well. Then he apparently discovered Fox. Methinks it fit him well and he shot it well.
He still bought a Parker first!
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Sidelock
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Read the words. What part of the statement do you take issue with?
Name a simpler, more reliable boxlock.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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Book wasn't called "American Guns Held in Good Opinion by British Gunmaker". But I'm glad to see that Ithaca SBT also met Mr. Wilkes' standards. Apparently hammer toes do break (see recent thread offering weldup) and cocking rods wear producing primer-bound strikers, and to paraphrase another Shakespearean besides Mac and Falstaff: "Do I not become loose like any gun? Have I not rivets thru my cheeks and lever left like any gun? However, most of the really decrepit ones do close and get off a shot, a record of basic performance which I'm told Parkers fail to match.
jack
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Let me tell you something.
I owned a Chevy last year. I bought it for $300. It was a 1948 model. It burned oil like crazy. It had rust holes the size of basketballs. The seats were lumpy and caused my rear end to grow fatigued after only a few miles. The tires were out of round and vibrated the whole car, and the holes in the roof leaked water on my head when it rained.
I got rid of it, and bought my first Chrysler. A 1948 Town and Country Woodie convertible in mint condition for only $105,000. I feel like a king when I drive it. She goes smooth down the road, starts every time, and girls I hardly know want to have sex with me just because I own it.
I can speak from sound experience that Chevy's are junk and in no way equal to Chryslers.
Now then, who wants to buy my book?
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When you have Sterlingworths selling for more than lower graded guns of other makes - its worth a mention.
The jury maybe still out with those only known to a select few.
Some so obscure, they rate the huh/hmmm factor and a don't say spit.
Hard to get a good Fox these days, not so with Parker and LC Smith as they linger - they've become tiresome even to the old gunshow farts.
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Obviously you have not held #252762. 
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Those who criticize any of the mentioned, including a '48 Chevy, have never owned them. If a Parker doesn't perform on birds, or your Blue Flame Six burns oil, it hasn't been maintained correctly. No one has mentioned a bad car or bird gun on this thread.
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Well, here is my breakdown on the American guns.
LC Smith: Simple design and virtually never shoot loose. Best engraving in higher models than any other. Lefever comes a close second in engraving. Like most sidelocks, the LC tends to crack behind the lock plate. Single trigger LC's have even less wood and less strength. As in all guns, the earlier, the better made. Pre-1913 guns are best. The post 1913 guns are available in two weights but neither is as light as I would prefer. The pre 1913 guns are often available in very light weights which are a superb joy to take upland. Tend to crack behind the tangs like other boxlocks.
Lefever: not to be confused with the butt-ugly Ithica-Lefever (Nitro Special). Another fine gun in higher grades. Has the great design feature of a simple screw which tightens action back on face. Beautiful engraving and unbelievable checkering in higher grades. Design had many iterations and difficult to change parts back and forth. Rather more complicated design. Many guns in fine handling weights.
Fox: In a way, it is a box-lock LC. It was often available in lighter upland weights which is a bonus and has led to folks like MM saying kind things about it. Except for the early guns, the Fox had the worst engraving of any American gun.
Ithica: Available in many types with the Flues being rather weak, and the latter NID being strong. Basically, it was meant to be a cheap gun but with more higher grades available. Frankly, it was a boxy, buttugly gun but quite a good shooter. The higher grades had excellent checkering. NID was long lasting.
Parker: The Parker had one feature which really put it above the others. It was available in many more frame sizes than the others which allowed it to be more ergodynamic for more people. I personally love the 0 frame size for 20 & 16 gauges, but to each his own. Decent checkering and engraving but not a match to LC or Lefever. For some reason, they made the drop extremely deep as a rule.
There were also imported guns such as the Chas Daly Lindner and Sauers. Fine guns.
There were also the imported Brit guns (mainly shotguns only since the Brits never understood rifles), but only the Birmingham guns were of any note.
Last edited by Pete; 09/04/07 05:41 PM.
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I would not mind owning one made in Bowling Green, OH and stamped 'Not Connected With Lefever Arms Co.'. 
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The fact that I tried a '48 Chevy and it proved to be junk, and the Chrysler didn't, proves that Chryslers are the FINEST CAR IN THE WORLD. The Chevy just didn't fit me. I'd love to stay and debate this further but I'm off to the publisher so's everyone can buy my opinion.
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GregSY, are you sure that Chevy was a 48. It sounds like my 49. However, for a robust pile of heavy metal, how bout a 53. I've always wanted a flat-head six in a Sterlingworth--the perfect gun truck.
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Greg, I don't need to buy your book! But, this GM man NEEDS your Chrysler, where are them girls. 
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I remember when Town and Countries were on the road. Even when I was six, I couldn't figure out who was buying them. I am even more in the dark now that I'm 61. My woodie is less a mystery because the original purchaser, The Lovely Linda's uncle, was certified. Lucky for me, he garaged it and drove other vehicles. The 460 is low mileage (with a bad valve guide, unfortunately). That doesn't make it a bad vehicle nor does anyones opinion about a gun they've never owned make it a bad gun. I like Pete's last comment. It was a surprise. At least Pete has owned them all. Murphy
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I believe MM was simply repeating the marketing slogan that Fox used. Everybody has their opinion on what is best to them. From reading MM's other writings I don't think he is of the opinion that Fox is the best that ever was or is. Even if he does so what? That said we know for sure Parkers could never be "the best" as they are the buttfugliest classic American double made.
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What's "Town & Country"? Is it that dorky wagon with wooden panels that only guys wearing bow ties drive? 
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As a long time Fox owner and shooter I think the following is a fair assessment of the gun; It,IMO of course, was the finest gun for the money at the time. There's no way it can compare with the handmade masterpieces coming out of Great Britian during that period no was it intended to do so.
Jim
The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.
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"But only the Birmingham guns were of any note."
Wish Pete woulda put this as his first sentence of his rave-up, I could have stopped right then and there.
Must have a thing against London guns, or...............!
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Well, here is my breakdown on the American guns.
LC Smith: Simple design and virtually never shoot loose. Best engraving in higher models than any other. Lefever comes a close second in engraving. Like most sidelocks, the LC tends to crack behind the lock plate. Single trigger LC's have even less wood and less strength. As in all guns, the earlier, the better made. Pre-1913 guns are best. The post 1913 guns are available in two weights but neither is as light as I would prefer. The pre 1913 guns are often available in very light weights which are a superb joy to take upland. Tend to crack behind the tangs like other boxlocks.
Lefever: not to be confused with the butt-ugly Ithica-Lefever (Nitro Special). Another fine gun in higher grades. Has the great design feature of a simple screw which tightens action back on face. Beautiful engraving and unbelievable checkering in higher grades. Design had many iterations and difficult to change parts back and forth. Rather more complicated design. Many guns in fine handling weights.
Fox: In a way, it is a box-lock LC. It was often available in lighter upland weights which is a bonus and has led to folks like MM saying kind things about it. Except for the early guns, the Fox had the worst engraving of any American gun.
Ithica: Available in many types with the Flues being rather weak, and the latter NID being strong. Basically, it was meant to be a cheap gun but with more higher grades available. Frankly, it was a boxy, buttugly gun but quite a good shooter. The higher grades had excellent checkering. NID was long lasting.
Parker: The Parker had one feature which really put it above the others. It was available in many more frame sizes than the others which allowed it to be more ergodynamic for more people. I personally love the 0 frame size for 20 & 16 gauges, but to each his own. Decent checkering and engraving but not a match to LC or Lefever. For some reason, they made the drop extremely deep as a rule.
There were also imported guns such as the Chas Daly Lindner and Sauers. Fine guns.
There were also the imported Brit guns (mainly shotguns only since the Brits never understood rifles), but only the Birmingham guns were of any note. ergodynamic?
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PJ, I can't answer your question because, as I mentioned, I have never been able to figure out who bought them. OK, you might have it, they may be bow tie guys. By the way, it's not a wagon, it's a ragtop. Boy, that $100,000 plus would have paid for a Cobra Repro, also with wood sides.
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“No Fox gun--indeed, no American gun---has ever approached the perfection of a London best nor the finest products of the various European trades, but by the same token, no boxlock action built anywhere exceeds the simplicity or reliability or sheer mechanical excellence of a Fox. No British or European boxlock is any better, and no American gun can even come close---not Parker nor Ithaca nor the Winchester 21 nor even Uncle Dan Lefever’s great Automatic Hammerless.” All true. What's the problem?
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. - Albert Einstein
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Yes, Fin2, so far no evidence to refute:
" no boxlock action built anywhere exceeds the simplicity or reliability or sheer mechanical excellence of a Fox."
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Why would only a "Birmingham gun be of note". I just got a C. Hunt SxS? The action is marked "Birmingham & London", so I guess I have all my bases covered.
Regards,
Max
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hehehe
bait for crossedchisels
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IMO the Remingtons were the best- but then they never get any mention.Paul
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I can buy a Westley Richards A&D boxlock non-ejector for less than a Fox Sterlingworth…which one would you rather have? Don’t get me wrong, I love Fox’s, but they’re not the same gun as a Westley Richards.
Vintage and Double Gun Loony
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"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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I think he is talking about 'Empire Grade' E10 from St. Mary's Square. It's quite easy to mistake one soot covered factory builiding for another. I might buy a log cabin in Blue Ridge Mtns. add pine furniture and raise some chickens. What's wrong with a simple life Sterlingworth? I'm sure it will come in handy with Rottweil 'Express' 67mm buckshot loads to keep them foxes and coyotes at bay. 
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Don't get too caught-up in the Westley Richards experience - there are many that are not up to Philly Sterlingworth snuff.
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Lord Lowell, are you sure you don't mean W. Richards?
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I've seen non ejector A&D Westley's for as low as $1,250, and I got mine for $1,450. I've seen several under 2k in the past year. I'll take a WR over a Philly Sterlingworth any day.
Vintage and Double Gun Loony
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My gosh!! This has got to be the dumbest post that I have ever read. Are you guys a bunch of morons or what?!! If the roof on your car leaks, and it is dripping on your head, just move your head out of the way!!........ WHO DEY? WHO DEY?
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If only we Americans coudve ever learned to properly stock all those great classic SXS's. Thats my only beef with American Classics, almost have to re-learn to shoot for them to perform. Oh they look good sure, but all that drop at heel jsut stifles me. I got rid a very nice Fox Sterlingworth in 16GA last year because there was nothing short of re-stocking that wouldve made that thing shoot for me. Then, I buy a lowly Belgian Guild gun for 200 bucks 2 weeks ago and I can't miss. Went ten for ten on doves last weekend - thats a first of a lifetime of hunting. But, the guild gun is stocked very straight and modern like, as are most English guns. So for me, the best SXS's have all proven to be of European origins. Even the over/under too, as the Superposed is the best of all time in my book. For beauty as well as practical applications/performance. Again, a european gun even though John Browning invented it. Took the Belgians to build it.
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All this chatter of "finest" and "best" this or that, garaging of woodies, bad Chevys and good Chryslers, brings some of my thoughts up.
First, my woody stays in the garage these days more than it used to. Romance is a casulty of a busy life.
I don't like Chrysler products, never did, even when working on Hemi D6 heads for Pro-stockers and especially when working on fueler Hemi heads.
I like most of the vintage American big name guns, but recognize that all have their pluses and minuses, a Fox is no different on this. Still, I wouldn't want to be deprived of owning any of them. Being examples of our American history, I appreciate all of them and worship none.
European (that includes the UK last time I checked) guns can often be found of better design and/or manufacture than American guns. I appreciate good design and manufacture as much or more than the average guy. Nevertheless, I don't find myself as interested in them as American guns. Guess I'm just a knothead patriot. No arguement there.
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Don't get too caught-up in the Westley Richards experience - there are many that are not up to Philly Sterlingworth snuff.
Better than the funny paper...
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There are more than enough Westleys that are as plain as your great aunt's church dress. It is the keepers/exports/rough guns, that I'd pick a Sterlingworth over - just because it's American.
You'd be giving-up a little in gun handling and wood perhaps in these Bond St. off-the-rackers...but still!
Don't know a Brit, that thinks of himself as European.
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What's funny j0ie, is that I think Westley a cut above Scott!
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Don't know a Brit, that thinks of himself as European.
Yeah, a aviation Fed biz acquaint for the UK has been grumblin over the absorbtion of his job into EU's EASA. All the EU member countries probably feel the same way except Germany who seems to want another empire.
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"If only we Americans coudve ever learned to properly stock all those great classic SXS's. Thats my only beef with American Classics, almost have to re-learn to shoot for them to perform."
I suppose it could be offered that the American SxS's WERE properly stocked, and it is the American of 2007 who doesn't know what proper is. I could care less what the drop at heel is as long as it is between 2" and 4". My body is at least that adjustable, on demand. Would you buy a 1929 Duesenberg and suggest it should be rebodied for better ergonomics?
Chuck, as for your aversion to Chrysler products....I guess you can lead a horse to water.....!
My point in all this is simple - MacIntosh's opinion is based (by his own words that he owned one Parker) on little data and regardless remains an opinion, not fact. He's carved out a name for hisself and has a fat publishing contract but then so does Rosie O'Donnell and I don't look to her to tell me what's what.
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Greg, but is MM's statement an opinion. which may be argued many ways? Or is it true? Does any other action "exceed" the simplicity, reliability or mechanical excellence of a Fox?
There are enough engineers and distinguished doublegun authorities and enthusiasts here to make a declarative yes or no, with evidence to support their claims.
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What's funny j0ie, is that I think Westley a cut above Scott!
Funny thing is you wouldn't know the difference in "a cut above".
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I dunno King, but it's all kind of a moot point 60+ years later anyway.
All the Parkers I have work and work well and none have ever broken on me. If another make were more simple or more dependable I guess the value of that is lost on me.
I think guns are generally like cars - if you have a good make and it breaks, it is most often tied to the owner's failure to maintain or use properly. Certain Jaguars excepted.
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We shouldn't pick on ol Michael too much. A lot of these writers are assigned a topic for an article on some magazine and it might be in an area in which they have no experience. So they might do some research and quote something of someone who was wrong. I think it was in this book that ol Michael gave some disparaging remarks of the LC Smith. Michael also said in another place that the pre-1913 LC's used all imported wood. I replied to him that was true if he considered Pennsylvania American black walnut "imported" wood. Michael said he had read that in an LC pamphlett. Good grief, these were the days of Caveat Emptor. Anyone attending a gun show could see that at least half of the pre-1913 LC used American walnut. But this is simply the problem that arises when you write something on a topic in which you are uninformed. I told Michael he needed to get out more. But this just shows that it is only too easy to use someone elses written words to continue an error which might be some considered the truth eventually. Comments like that on a site like this with all kinds of informed individuals usually gets jumped upon immediately.
The other type of article is the opinion article which is exemplified by this book. It is reminiscent of ol Ed Murdelak's article in the Double Gun Journal on how the Parker is better than sex. Now Michael knows much more about guns than ol Ed who wrote an article so ripe with untruths and errors that it could only be considered comedy. In talking to Ed, it became obvious he wasn't really a gun afficianado rather than a one dimentional Parker enthusiast. He had never even heard of Lindner.
Most posts here are heavily opinion oriented. That is the nature of the beast. Frankly, there are lots of guns out there with which I could call my favorite IF they fit me. The right Parker, LC, Fox, or Lefever or Colt could be my next love. Of course, not a BUNID or BU-21. We have top draw the line SOMEWHERE.
Last edited by Pete; 09/06/07 12:47 PM.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,935
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,935 |
I agree Pete. I guess I come from the old train of thought that says you don't publish factual statements unless you had the data to back it up. Then again, I used to think what you saw on the new or read in the paper was the truth....
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