doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 11 ga W. Morse & Co. SxS

Oral history in my family is that this 11ga muzzle loader came west over the arm of my great great grandfather after the civil war. I've been unable to find out much about this gun maker, W. Morse & Co. I did find mention of a gun maker Wm. Morse and another reference to a Geo. W. Morse of Worcester, MA. I'd be grateful for any information the group could pass on to me about this gun maker and help with answering the question: Is this gun of the period that it could have come west in the late 1860's?

If you moved the key out you should be able to remove the barrels from the action. Then look to see if there are any proof marks on the underside. That would give you confirmation of British or Belgian origin. Made in the US you would find no proof marks. If unclear how to move the key go to YouTube and watch it done there on black powder muzzle loaders.

Another thing to do is to make certain there are no loads in those barrels. Seems like half the old family muzzle loaders seem to have on or both barrels still loaded. Get a long wooded dowel and mark it from the muzzle end to the rear of the barrel. If you drop it down the bore and it is a couple inches too long consider that gun to still be loaded. Black powder will last a long time.

Good, advise from KY Jon on checking for a load.

Some years back a gentleman I was good friends with told me he had his grandad's ML double shotgun which had hung on his wall for approximately 50 years. He was wanting to pass it on to his grandson but had known all those years it was loaded. He asked me if I ould unload it for him, I said yes so he brought it to me. I proceeded to wet down the bores real good & pulled the top wads. The shot poured out more as a grey powder than actual shot. I then pulled the over powder wads & poured out the powder which was a wet sloppy mess. I poured it out on a flat steel plate & lit a propane torch. I ran this close above the powder & let the heat dry it a bit & then dipped the flame down to the powder & it went up in a Woof of white smoke. I have little doubt had I made sure the nipples were clear & capped it, it would have fired after all those years

A distant cousin of mine has our great Grandfather's rifle. He & his siblings had played with it for years. One day his Sister carried it to school on the bus for a "Show & Tell". She was sitting in the seat holding it & for some reason, she cocked the hammer & pulled the trigger Even though it was uncapped, she shot a hole through the roof of the bus. All that time they had played with it, no one ever checked to see if it was loaded.

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?89347-W-M-morse-and-Company

A breechloader with the same marks
http://www.gundersonmilitaria.com/shotgunpercmorse.html

A sidelever; 4th one down.
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/2024/619/five-shotguns

No hits here, but several on George W. Morse
https://archive.org/details/gunmaker00satt

So we have ML, to sidelever, to toplever breechloader. If Morse was a maker one would think there would be more evidence thereof. I'm betting a tradename, maybe the Morse Hardware in KY?
The Missouri Hause came from KY. Hawesville in on the Ohio river.

Thanks KY Jon and Miller. Appreciate the reminder.

Thanks, Drew. I did come across that Morse Hardware but ran into a dead end after that.

Thanks to the 300+ of you who read this request and gave some thought to the question. It seems that what I accomplished was to increase the number of us scratching our heads about W. Morse & Co. gunmakers. I�d appreciate your keeping this in mind as you continue to read and learn about double guns and if you come across a mention of W. Morse I�d appreciate your looking this thread back up and sharing what you found. Thanks.

Proof marks would help your quest. If British or Belgian proof marks are found you could narrow the date it was made and even make a few guesses about who sold it.

Thanks for the reminder, Jon. I did look up and watch a good video on that process. Unfortunately, the top screw is rusted in so will have a longer process to get that freed and out. I�ll update this thread as to what I find.

You should be able to remove the wedge across the forend & unhook the barrels from the breech. The top screw does not have to be removed to take the barrels off. If it has proof marks they will be on the underside of the barrels. If it is UUS made it will either have no proof marks or perhaps provisional proofs if the barrels were purchased abroad.

Thanks, Miller. I�ve had to make a trip out of state to help my 93 year old aunt with some needs so the project is on hold until I get back.

Update: on the way back I stopped at the Cody Firearms Museum and went to the research department with my question. Their extensive resources revealed no references to W Morse & Co. So next we�ll see what may be hiding under the barrels.

Update: Got the key out but discovered that the tang was an integral part of the barrel assembly. Did manage to get the two screws broken lose and out and then was able to remove the barrels. Here's what I found.



Here's a closeup of one of the four identical proof marks.



This is a sketch of what looks to be inside the proof mark under the crown.



Six inches up the right barrel from the breech are the letters W M
(W Morse ??)



One inch from the breech of the left barrel are the letters W A



Note: Both barrels have either one one or eleven stamped on them and the left barrel has two sets of hash marks, one set lighter than the other.

Jon and Miller and Drew: Thanks so much for your interest in this family mystery. I would appreciate your (as well as others') insight regarding this gun and particularly regarding the question: "Is it of the period that it could have come west in the late 1860's (or perhaps early 1870's)?

That appears (to me)to be a British proof mark.
Accordingly, the 11 (eleven) was the bore size.

Birmingham proof mark used from 1868 - 1925

Your mark under the crown appears to me to be VBP. This is a special definitive proof where the barrels were proofed only once in the finished state, but with the heavier Provisional proof charge. This proof was made available upon request of the gunmaker in 1868&* stayed in effect until I believe 1925. Birming proofed guns carried the crown over VBP while London proofed guns used a Lion Rampant over VGP. The BP & GP stood for Birmingham Proof & Gunmakers Proof respectfully, I have never to my recollection seen what the V stood for.

As this mark was not used until 1868 this would make this a fairly late gun for a muzzle-loader. I find it a bit unusual for a gun of that era not to have the hooked breech

Thanks, DM, for the insight on the 11 bore. That consideration hadn�t crossed my mind.
Argo, thanks, for the proof marks chart.
And thanks, Miller, for the explanation of the letters in the mark and the Birmingham connection.
At least I now know that the gun could be of the period that would support the oral history. That is significant.
Lastly, anyone across the pond have any knowledge of W. Morse & Co. or resources you could check? My thanks to you for looking.

argo, nice chart with dates...thanks for posting here...

check this out...

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/514-2

Thanks, Ed. Had a chance to look at the issues that I could access (wish I could find where to go back further than 4 issues) and found in one a reference to circa 1870 Birmingham guns having the barrel makers� two letter initials on the barrel. I wonder if that doesn�t explain the �WM� and the �WA� on the barrels?

The chart was from a book Diggory published a few years ago. He transposed it to his on-line magazine "Vintage Gun Journal." I've posted it a few times before and usually credited him.

The first issue of VGJ was July 2019. You'll find a very good two-part...soon to be three-part...article on Reilly there.

DmColonial, thanks so much for the word on the gauge. As I near the end of a complete disassembly and cleaning, I was able to take an accurate measurement of the barrels and they are indeed 11ga.

Hope to post some final pictures as well as a couple of interesting �finds� as a result of the thorough cleaning.

Most definitely

I take it you didn't find a loaded charge in either bore during cleaning? I just acquired a double barrel muzzleloader last week. Low and behold the right barrel had a charge of what looked like #7 shot in it. Ya never know and can never be too safe!!

Thanks, guns, for the heads up. Miller & Jon had warned me of that early in this journey. No, the barrels weren�t loaded but I did make an interesting discovery in one of them.
Working on pictures now.

The past four months have been very interesting as I've sought to determine if this (what I thought to be) 10ga W Morse & Co muzzleloader was of the period that it could have come west over the arm of my great, great grandfather after the Civil War. With your help I've been able to determine that indeed it is of the correct period. So with that knowledge I decided to do a complete disassembly and thorough cleaning. That process is done and the gun is back together (and in amazing shape.)

The first step was to clean the thick black grime off of the stock. Steve (SKB) was very helpful in sharing his process for doing this. I followed his guidance and after 15-20 scrubbings in some places and then well spaced out steps of raw linseed oil and 0000 steel wool (with a few light touches of 400 grit with raw oil on stubborn spots) the stock was clean and ready for hand rubbed light coats of boiled linseed oil. My goal was not to refinish the stock but to clean and re-oil it.

Before



After



While this rubbing and drying process was going on I began carding the barrels and other metalwork. The rust was so thick in some places that I doubted that I could remove it all but the outcome was more than I'd hoped for. Not only did the rust disappear but some interesting things came to light. On top of the rib I found "LAMINATED STEEL" and under the forearm area where the rust was lighter I was able to get some good pictures of the twist pattern. Thanks to Drew for identifying the pattern and confirming that rather than technically being "laminated steel" as from a "puddling" process these were barrels that were made from bars of iron and steel laid on top of each other.

The barrels were given multiple hot soapy baths (in my gunsmith's soap tank) and this turned out to be a bit of a challenge because of the 43 1/2' length of the barrels with the tang. Near the end of the process an interesting item floated out of one of the barrels.

A 20" stem of oats!



With the carding and cleaning steps completed what I thought initially to be an integrated tang turned out to not be. Miller your suspicions were right. Once the thick rust was gone it was clear that there was a junction line and a few taps of a plastic mallet separated the two.





After many, many strokes with a brush and patches the bores were clean and we were able to take an accurate bore measurement. It is actually an 11ga as DmColonial noticed on the barrel flats.

Earlier this week we were able to finally reach for the Rem oil and reassemble the gun.



Having passed my biblical "three score and ten" it is a special satisfaction at this stage of life to look at my great, great grandfather (that's the only known picture of him in the background) and imagine his thoughts as he survived the civil war and then came to the conclusion that his future lay to the west. And now to know, as best we can, that this firearm was a primary tool in his being successful in those new lands.

Thanks to you all for your interest and for your help along the way. Special thanks to my friend (and gunsmith), Karl Casebeer.

Quite a well done transformation. Are the bores fit to shoot and, if so, are you going to shoot it?

Very well done! Congratulations on a fine job. It looks "right", not all tarted up.

SRH

guns, the barrels are and the locks are in amazingly good condition. You can see the left nipple is open but damaged and would need to be reworked or replaced. And the right sear would need a little attention as the hammer cocks but doesn�t always hold. I may have that work done later but I�m not planning to shoot it. It will have a treasured place in our home until it (and the picture) pass to the next generation.

Sad to think you removed all the family history in your resurrection.

He mostly removed dirt and rust. The family history is still there.

Best,
Ted

Seeing the Webley & Scott post prompts me to update this thread and seek more input on my two remaining questions concerning this family heirloom 11ga SxS.

First, who was W. Morse & Co.? My working assumption is that it was an American importer who then retailed British made guns under their W. Morse brand name. So far, I have found other guns branded with this name but nothing regarding who W. Morse & Co. was.

The second question is who built these guns for them and here I may have a lead that I�d appreciate more help from the DG fraternity on.

In DGJ Vol 14:2 is an article by Sherman Bell (p. 18f) on W. & C. Scott Co. of Birmingham (formed about 1835 and merged in 1897 with P. Webley & Son to form Webley & Scott). Quotes in the article relative to the period of my gun have piqued my interest.
�...Scott aggressively marketed his guns outside of Great Britain. Between 1860 and 1886 he made many trips to America to visit firearms dealers to promote Scott guns and organize a network of importers.�
�...there are probably more Scott guns in this country than those from most other British makers.�
�...the Scott company would make a gun to a price...�. �The ever practical Americans bought these plain, but very good guns by the thousands.�
�...Scott made many guns for other makers.�

The first Scott gun (from 1862 or later) that Bell features �...is a plain grade, percussion 14-gauge with no serial number.� He later mentions that �...the majority of percussion guns were not assigned serial numbers.� My gun, which bears Birmingham proof marks that came into usage in 1868 and does not have a serial number, has many similarities to this gun.

I would be grateful to any here who know W. & C. Scott guns and/or have a copy of �The History of W. & C. Scott Gunmakers� by Crawford & Whatley and could tell me whether, or to what degree, you think my gun may be a Scott made gun.

Thanks for your help.

There was the US hardware firm of Fairbanks-Morse, but the partner was C. Morse.......

Thanks, DmC. I, too, looked down that street. It was a dead end but I�ll keep looking.

As to maker, it seems I may have a solid lead. Because of it�s strong similarities to Scott guns I�m hopeful that a knowledgeable Scott fan, particularly of their guns during the Scott & Son era (1862-1897) when �America was Scott�s primary market...� will be able to provide some definitive help.

Having come to the end of the year and the end of my efforts to confirm the W & C Scott and Son origin of this legacy double, I've pulled the locks and am sharing pictures with the hope that someone here can confirm if they are indeed Scott locks. Sherman Bell mentions in his DGJ 14:2 article on W & C Scott and Son guns that he pulled and examined a lock on the 14ga percussion double that very nearly mirrors mine but unfortunately he does not include a picture of the internals. The size, shape, pin positions and engraving layout on mine are identical to his which is built after 1862 when the name W. & C. Scott & Son came into being and is engraved in the same manner and location as W Morse & Co is on mine which bears 1868 proof marks.






Would anyone with knowledge of this era design or a similar gun for comparison be able to confirm if this is a Scott lock?

Thanks again to all of you for your interest and help.

During the holidays I corresponded with some of our members across the pond regarding W. & C. Scott & Son and while none were able to help with these specific locks, amazingly, one of them had a personal copy of the Crawford & Whatley book. He was nice enough to look through it but unfortunately his report back was that there was next to nothing in it on the percussion era Scott doubles. So I believe I'll start a new thread with just the pictures of the locks with the hope that someone might have a Scott double from this period (1860's through 1875) who could compare theirs with mine.